johnalison
Well-known member
Clutching at straws used to be my mode of navigation. I once invented a formula for establishing distance off by the estimated legth of fishing boats encountered.
When was the last time you used Dead Reckoning/Estimated Position or took bearings in anger?
- Thread starter LittleSister
- Start date
Kukri
Well-known member
I am having to think hard in order to answer the question.
In 1976 in a triumph of DR I found the Shipwash LV on the bow after sailing very slowly from Rotterdam. I then threw it all away by setting off the tide as a reciprocal, due to fatigue.
In 1981 in my worst DR blunder I took someone else’s boat into Hugh Town St Mary’s thinking I was entering Falmouth (yes, it was very foggy!). I think this used up my lifetime’s supply of luck.
I do still grab the hand bearing compass that I bought at Woolverstone Marina in 1973; force of habit, and I do still keep a paper chart marked up every hour.
“The navigator knows no sensation more disagreeable than that of running ashore, unless it be accompanied by a doubt as to which continent the shore belongs to.”
STS Lecky, “Wrinkles” in Practical Navigation, quoted by HW Tilman.
In 1976 in a triumph of DR I found the Shipwash LV on the bow after sailing very slowly from Rotterdam. I then threw it all away by setting off the tide as a reciprocal, due to fatigue.
In 1981 in my worst DR blunder I took someone else’s boat into Hugh Town St Mary’s thinking I was entering Falmouth (yes, it was very foggy!). I think this used up my lifetime’s supply of luck.
I do still grab the hand bearing compass that I bought at Woolverstone Marina in 1973; force of habit, and I do still keep a paper chart marked up every hour.
“The navigator knows no sensation more disagreeable than that of running ashore, unless it be accompanied by a doubt as to which continent the shore belongs to.”
STS Lecky, “Wrinkles” in Practical Navigation, quoted by HW Tilman.
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AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
If it's (mostly) white, it's Antarctica! If it has kangaroos, it's Australia; if it has Apes it's Africa; opossums America (North or South). Asia and Europe are harder to distinguish as it's a political rather than a physical boundary, but rice- = Asia and Wheat = Europe would be a reasonable guess!
DanTribe
Well-known member
Last year.
Took granddaughter on a trip Burnham to Deben and decided to show her how to navigate "properly".
It took some effort to remember how, but it all came back eventually. At the end of the lesson I said "but now we just press a button and go there".
Took granddaughter on a trip Burnham to Deben and decided to show her how to navigate "properly".
It took some effort to remember how, but it all came back eventually. At the end of the lesson I said "but now we just press a button and go there".
capnsensible
Well-known member
Interesting thread. Many tides ago I used to sail often across the channel with DR/EP and the trusty hand compass. I found the sixty or so times I did that a valuable grounding in how it all works, respect for tides, overcoming any last vestiges of seasickness and having a smoke at the chart table whilst everyone else is on deck in the rain.
Then came Decca. Still used it more as a back up but meant far less time loafing below.
Of course, now chart plotters and very accurate GPS, as we all know, made everything safer....but for me that bit less challenging. And I quit smoking decades ago!
Have taught hundreds of practical courses since then. DR rarely more than a discussion point. I suppose the projected EP could be useful, but rarely found the need in reality although seen it tested in YM practical exams.
Far more use for me is Course to Steer. Again, hundreds of crossings of the Gib Straits enabled the techniques to be passed on especially with the areas interesting mix of current and tides. Good eye opener for the screen watchers, I found. Perhaps the whole traditional nav thing gets people more in touch with their surroundings? Dunno.
Have just taught Day Skipper theory course followed by a Coastal. As these courses have developed over the years, they have become far more realistic. But there is still room for traditional nav to be taught and put in perspective......in my view.
Soo, long winded answer to OP......flipping ages, but I can!
Then came Decca. Still used it more as a back up but meant far less time loafing below.
Of course, now chart plotters and very accurate GPS, as we all know, made everything safer....but for me that bit less challenging. And I quit smoking decades ago!
Have taught hundreds of practical courses since then. DR rarely more than a discussion point. I suppose the projected EP could be useful, but rarely found the need in reality although seen it tested in YM practical exams.
Far more use for me is Course to Steer. Again, hundreds of crossings of the Gib Straits enabled the techniques to be passed on especially with the areas interesting mix of current and tides. Good eye opener for the screen watchers, I found. Perhaps the whole traditional nav thing gets people more in touch with their surroundings? Dunno.
Have just taught Day Skipper theory course followed by a Coastal. As these courses have developed over the years, they have become far more realistic. But there is still room for traditional nav to be taught and put in perspective......in my view.
Soo, long winded answer to OP......flipping ages, but I can!
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LittleSister
Well-known member
I disagree. As Saint Tom of Cunliffe wisely put it, coastal pilotage is about knowing where you are not!
So long as you know, by any reliable method, that you are clear of whatever dangers there are, then you don't need to know exactly where you are.
Exactly so.
CLP
Member
In anger.......2016 YM Triangle Race on leg to Kinsale. All power failed, including engine start and all instruments caput south of Falmouth. Completed leg using DR with estimated speeds etc and lighthouse sightings. Needed a tow into Kinsale. Got a respectable result, so it worked.
arc1
Member
Same. Used to do it all the the for work, and happy I still can (and would be uncomfortable if I couldn't). I do wonder if future generations will actually ever miss it though? Suspect leisure sailors will be the last bastion of paper charts and not sure how long that will last (and that is not an opinion on whether I think paper charts demise a good thing or not!)Soo, long winded answer to OP......flipping ages, but I can!
srm
Well-known member
Friends who sailed with me got used to seeing all the electronic toys lit up as we made our way between the islands of Orkney. Then one fine sunny afternoon we headed out and none of them were turned on. How do you know where you are going? So I got to explain eyeball navigation using buoys and features of the islands themselves as my guides and signposts.
john_morris_uk
Well-known member
The problem with modern systems using plotters and GPS is that they are extremely good, but they’re also only as good as the charting that’s in them and their users understanding of their limitations. Ocean racers hit reefs that weren’t visible at the scale selected. Cruising sailors hitting reefs when their plotter tells them they’re in safe water because they’re used to accurate charting in well surveyed areas and forgot to look at the echo sounder and what’s in front of them.
One of the things we lose is the proper inbuilt scepticism of the navigator. Pre GPS and Decca one spent a lot of time not knowing with 100% accuracy where you were. When you aimed for somewhere you ‘aimed off’ so that when you reached soundings and sighted land you knew which way to turn as you sought identifiable objects to fix off. The good navigator cross checks things. The plotter says I’m here but does that make sense with the depth on the sounder and what I see?
Many people might never use DR’s and EP’s but I humbly suggest that they lose some basic skills of being a good navigator that using DR’s and EP’s drums into you.
Robin
Well-known member
Pretty much my sentiments too but much better put than did I. In my case being of an age before Decca and GPS where navigation was more the art of knowing where you weren't rather than precisely where you were. That thinking in my case continued even after acquiring one of the first Decca sets which though it had quirks like displaying fantastic SOG backwards or even sideways was nevertheless very repeatable and with faults and basic knowledge of old in mind still excellent. I graduated from D ecca to GPS (with and without yeoman paper plotter) , then dGPS (before selective availability was switched off by uncle Sam) which could really highlight charting inconsistencies when ground tracks were examined later. I still remember the times when flashy electronics were not allowed in the likes of JOG races and a really smart navigator could win in older and cheaper rides. Would I go back though, no bloody way. but my brain still applies the same basic thinking to the latest gizmos in use.
Iliade
Well-known member
I wonder how many of us sail straight lines, rather than the shortest route, across The Channel* nowadays? And how many would admit to it... ?
*Insert cross tidal passage of choice.
DanTribe
Well-known member
I helped bring a boat back from Borkum to Burnham. During my watch in the small hours I steered a compass course. The owner / skipper called out that I was 1/2 mile off course on his cross track error. I explained that when the tide turned it would bring us back, he accepted that. A bit later he complained that I was now 1 mile XTE. So we spent the next 18 hrs steering into the tides. Must have added several miles.
Poignard
Well-known member
Rather than "humbly suggest" it you should shout it loudly!
?
srm
Well-known member
Have come across rocks in a bay on the west coast of Scotland that are totally omitted on electronic cartography but were correctly shown as "two metres or less" on old paper products.
Teaching pilotage on RYA courses and coastal navigation on MN simulator courses I quoted Mark Twain's passenger and river pilot :
"Gee, you know where all the rocks are"
"No mam, I know where they aint"
On the MN courses passage planning on paper charts included boldly marking no go areas around all shallow areas on either side of the intended track. Track was then transferred to the chart plotter, but paper chart still used for monitoring.
Crossing the Falls of Warness in Orkney at about 6kn. my required ground track was about 040 T, but boat's head had to be around 085 / 090 T. An interesting problem for the unsuspecting, get it wrong and you could be out into the Atlantic waiting for the tide to turn. The Falls is an extreme example though and the location of the first EU funded research site with infrastructure for tidal energy machines.
Aardee
Well-known member
Was that you? - We saw you arrive in Cherbourg and quietly tipped our hats to you
johnalison
Well-known member
Sailing around the Bohuslan archipelago in Sweden was a matter of rock-avoidance, but with the advantage of minimal tidal height changes. The recommended routes are marked as black lines on the charts. Although it was often a simple matter of following the black lines, mostly by heading for the next shore mark, there were occasions when tacking meant that pilotage was necessary. I found that on average there would only be three or four rocks < 2m not showing above the surface, so I would highlight pen these on the chart and then could sail without a care on all the other areas. A Swede doesn't consider himself a proper sailor until he has hit a rock.
Wansworth
Well-known member
Will future navigantes no what they missed as the approach an iron bound coast with only a ep.Just sailing to Spain prior to gps etc there was a true sense of accomplishment ?
dunedin
Well-known member
The much quoted ocean racers (Vestus Wind) hitting reefs is often referred to but, I humbly suggest, rarely understood or referred to correctly. Happy to be corrected, but from my reading of the formal accident report they weren’t navigating using a conventional chart plotter at the wrong scale.
Rather the race boat had multiple specialist PC navigation systems below decks. If I recall correctly, they weren’t even using the navigation software on the one PC switched on, but using a specialist race tactics programme. It was not designed for navigation. The race route had also been changed at short notice (to bypass pirate hotspots?) but the navigator had failed to do sufficient passage planning of the new route before leaving harbour. So not an issue of vector charts and wrong zoom on a chart plotter, but (as usual) a series of multiple basic errors, and ultimately not using appropriate navigation processes or systems.
When I looked at the actual location using Navionics (albeit some time later) it was very difficult to see any situation where the dangers were not shown at any sensible scale of zoom. Hence if they had a conventional Raymarine/B&G chart plotter at the helm switched on with a commercially available vector chart they could have seen the danger.
Similarly, and perhaps even more scary, was the Clipper fleet where at least one boat hit South Africa hard, but others were also well into danger in the dark under spinnaker, and one is suspected of touching bottom and still continuing onto the Southern Ocean (alleged by some , I emphasise, not proven and I have no inside knowledge or viewpoint). This was again not due to wrong zoom on chart plotters - but if I recall correctly a bizarre systems where the only nav plotter was below decks and out of sight of the helm and crew on deck, there was AFAIK no appointed on watch navigator, and the skipper and crew were all on deck doing racing manoevers with the spinnakers in the dark - and hence nobody realised, or indeed checked, how close they were to shore / shallows.
These incidents seem to be oft misquoted and largely myth IMHO - but happy to be corrected if anybody has more detailed facts.
Clearly over reliance on chart accuracy in places with old surveys, and indeed over reliance on any single source, is a real issue — but not in the way these examples are often referred to.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
I wanted to take the inshore route north past Lands End so I went into the scankiest pub I could find in Newlyn to ask a couple of fishermen. I only had the Imray passage charts ( Newlyn was not even shown). I first asked about tides ( Reeds is a bit confusing) First skipper replied, " Listen mate, I have been fishing here for 30 years & i still do not know what way they run". To which his mate replied, " that is why you don't catch any fish". After much hillarity & me buying more pints, I got to my next question " So what is the route through the channel & how can I do it?" to which one replied, " Keep close in & if you see a rock, then don't hit it" The other nodded in agreement & both carried on supping their beers, in sage like acknowledgement of a wise comment. I left them to it. None the wiser but £'s worse off
However, when I did it I found their advice dead right. The channel is deep & the rocks rise steeply out of the water; so one can see where they are. Accordingly, I avoided belting any & I have been through twice in perfect safety. The first with no plotter, although I did have one for my second round UK trip. Using that, I managed to hit a rock in Ardglass, whereas I missed it the first time with no plotter
However, when I did it I found their advice dead right. The channel is deep & the rocks rise steeply out of the water; so one can see where they are. Accordingly, I avoided belting any & I have been through twice in perfect safety. The first with no plotter, although I did have one for my second round UK trip. Using that, I managed to hit a rock in Ardglass, whereas I missed it the first time with no plotter