When was the last time you used Dead Reckoning/Estimated Position or took bearings in anger?

R.Ems

Active member
Joined
1 Apr 2022
Messages
356
Visit site
I have never understood this saying, please explain, exactly how can an exception prove a rule? Surely, if there is an exception it can not be a rule.....
Allow me to end your suffering..
It's a archaic meaning of the word 'prove', in this phrase case prove means 'test', or 'challenge',
Exceptions do challenge or test rules; of course it would be nonsensical to say they prove them.
The question is asked by 1000's, daily!
 

dgadee

Well-known member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
3,777
Visit site
The crew sometimes lifts a Cunliffe book on day skipper, eyes glaze over and puts it down. I looked at it yesterday. It has a section on how to get into harbour in fog if you have no GPS system. We usually have at least 5 GPS options. Mobiles, tablets, pc based. Who goes to sea these days without a battery of location devices?
 

dgadee

Well-known member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
3,777
Visit site
And to annoy you even more: secondary ports. Please!!

Edit: I learned to sail with two mathematicians. They were always making errors in calculations. Get an app on your phone!
 
Last edited:

AntarcticPilot

Well-known member
Joined
4 May 2007
Messages
10,382
Location
Cambridge, UK
www.cooperandyau.co.uk
Allow me to end your suffering..
It's a archaic meaning of the word 'prove', in this phrase case prove means 'test', or 'challenge',
Exceptions do challenge or test rules; of course it would be nonsensical to say they prove them.
The question is asked by 1000's, daily!
Actually, it's from the Roman, Cicero, who amongst other things was a lawyer, in modern terms. What he was saying is that if there's a law saying X is prohibited on Sundays, it shows that X is NOT prohibited on any other day. In context it makes perfect sense.
 

LittleSister

Well-known member
Joined
12 Nov 2007
Messages
18,436
Location
Me Norfolk/Suffolk border - Boat Deben & Southwold
Visit site
Allow me to end your suffering..
It's a archaic meaning of the word 'prove', in this phrase case prove means 'test', or 'challenge',

It's not archaic in that the meaning of the word 'prove' still means to test the validity or truth of something by evidence or argument. Although we primarily use it today in the sense of testing something to show it is true, it is still also used in the sense of testing whether or not it is true, in, for example, proof testing establishments (in engineering) and degrees proof (of alcohol).

Consider that 'the exception that proves [i.e. tests] the rule' is about stress-testing the rule.

My alibi proves I didn't commit the crime, your honour. :D

p.s. Not to mention 'proof reading' - the act of finding and correcting mistakes in texts.
 
Last edited:

dgadee

Well-known member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
3,777
Visit site
It's not archaic in that the meaning of the word 'prove' still means to test the validity or truth of something by evidence or argument. Although we primarily use it today in the sense of testing something to show it is true, it is still also used in the sense of testing whether or not it is true, in, for example, proof testing establishments (in engineering) and degrees proof (of alcohol).

Consider that 'the exception that proves [i.e. tests] the rule' is about stress-testing the rule.

My alibi proves I didn't commit the crime, your honour. :D

p.s. Not to mention 'proof reading' - the act of finding and correcting mistakes in texts.

A Spanish colleague always used it in that manner.
 

capnsensible

Well-known member
Joined
15 Mar 2007
Messages
45,341
Location
Atlantic
Visit site
The Rennaissanc and communication scholar, Walter Ong always said that the more expert you are on the past, the less likely you want to return there. You lot are the exception which proves the rule.
He sounds like a bit of a bore. Bet he sat on his own at parties.
 

capnsensible

Well-known member
Joined
15 Mar 2007
Messages
45,341
Location
Atlantic
Visit site
The crew sometimes lifts a Cunliffe book on day skipper, eyes glaze over and puts it down. I looked at it yesterday. It has a section on how to get into harbour in fog if you have no GPS system. We usually have at least 5 GPS options. Mobiles, tablets, pc based. Who goes to sea these days without a battery of location devices?
Well, me. Don't need them. But no problem with people that do.
 

AntarcticPilot

Well-known member
Joined
4 May 2007
Messages
10,382
Location
Cambridge, UK
www.cooperandyau.co.uk
The crew sometimes lifts a Cunliffe book on day skipper, eyes glaze over and puts it down. I looked at it yesterday. It has a section on how to get into harbour in fog if you have no GPS system. We usually have at least 5 GPS options. Mobiles, tablets, pc based. Who goes to sea these days without a battery of location devices?
And if a truck driver parked on the pier is using a GPS jammer to fake driving hours? Or there's sunspot activity messing the signal up? Or there's a naval exercise in the vicinity and they're jamming GPS? In any of those cases, all your GPS systems will be so many bricks! The latter is fairly common in parts of the UK (the West Coast of Scotland especially). I don't know the range of GPS jamming units, but given that the signal is incredibly weak, it doesn't take a lot to mess it up. And that's not to mention the outside chance of a major solar flare frying the satellites and at best causing an outage of days if not longer.

PostScript: My answer to "How to get into Harbour if fog comes down" is "Don't". Know which direction is safe, and head out to sea; get sea room and then wait it out!
 

dgadee

Well-known member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
3,777
Visit site
And if a truck driver parked on the pier is using a GPS jammer to fake driving hours? Or there's sunspot activity messing the signal up? Or there's a naval exercise in the vicinity and they're jamming GPS? In any of those cases, all your GPS systems will be so many bricks! The latter is fairly common in parts of the UK (the West Coast of Scotland especially). I don't know the range of GPS jamming units, but given that the signal is incredibly weak, it doesn't take a lot to mess it up. And that's not to mention the outside chance of a major solar flare frying the satellites and at best causing an outage of days if not longer.

Ochone! We are all doomed.
 

R.Ems

Active member
Joined
1 Apr 2022
Messages
356
Visit site
The crew sometimes lifts a Cunliffe book on day skipper, eyes glaze over and puts it down. I looked at it yesterday. It has a section on how to get into harbour in fog if you have no GPS system. We usually have at least 5 GPS options. Mobiles, tablets, pc based. Who goes to sea these days without a battery of location devices?
Some people prefer the satisfaction of using their own skills and brains to navigate, with a few basic tools and methods.
I would place Cunliffe's advice a lot higher than an umpteenth extra gadget.
 

dgadee

Well-known member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
3,777
Visit site
Some people prefer the satisfaction of using their own skills and brains to navigate, with a few basic tools and methods.
I would place Cunliffe's advice a lot higher than an umpteenth extra gadget.

Maybe. But I think there is a need to rethink what navigation in the 2020s is and educate new entrants with useful stuff, not just what has been on the syllabus since the dawn of the RYA.
 

srm

Well-known member
Joined
16 May 2004
Messages
3,248
Location
Azores, Terceira.
Visit site
Maybe. But I think there is a need to rethink what navigation in the 2020s is and educate new entrants with useful stuff, not just what has been on the syllabus since the dawn of the RYA.
Reminds me of a fishing skipper I met in the 70's when training as a hydrographic surveyor. Our research organisation chartered his vessel. The difference is that he knew the limitaions of his navigation ability. He pointed to the Decca receiver - the big one with three dials giving the lane readings and a fourth with the spider lane ident.
"If that stopped working I would not be able to find my way home"
 

ctva

Well-known member
Joined
8 Apr 2007
Messages
4,747
Visit site
Maybe. But I think there is a need to rethink what navigation in the 2020s is and educate new entrants with useful stuff, not just what has been on the syllabus since the dawn of the RYA.
I take it you have not looked at the current syllabi for the various RYA quals / exams? Use of both traditional and electronic nav aids are all taught and examined on.

The content and delivery is continually revised and updated.
 

dgadee

Well-known member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
3,777
Visit site
I take it you have not looked at the current syllabi for the various RYA quals / exams? Use of both traditional and electronic nav aids are all taught and examined on.

The content and delivery is continually revised and updated.

No, I haven't. But for day skipper I would drop the historic stuff which is done more accurately by an app. I only have Cunliffe's book. Entertaining but could be better. On anchoring he has a lovely picture of a Spade anchor but not much diagrammatically useful (in my opinion, of course).
 

ctva

Well-known member
Joined
8 Apr 2007
Messages
4,747
Visit site
No, I haven't...
:rolleyes:

No, I haven't. But for day skipper I would drop the historic stuff which is done more accurately by an app. I only have Cunliffe's book. Entertaining but could be better. On anchoring he has a lovely picture of a Spade anchor but not much diagrammatically useful (in my opinion, of course).


Pray tell, what 'historic stuff' would you drop that is not needed if GPS is unavailable?
 
Top