When the seller deliberately withholds material information on the underwater hull condition ?

[eebygum]

I’ve bought and sold boats both privately and through a broker; but what would you you do as the buyer in the following scenario ?

When a UK seller, selling through a broker…. deliberately withholds information (from the broker and prospective buyer) on the below the waterline hull condition (that it’s subsequently learnt they commissioned an independent report on and received remedial action treatment for) ….. which only comes to light when the prospective buyer went through the expense of lifting out and paying for a survey on the boat.

(A) Do nothing - swallow the several hundred pounds and move on to the next potential boat purchase

(B) Ask the seller to refund a percentage of the survey fees and move on…. otherwise execute option (C)

(C) share the name of the boat and condition to the relevant owners and Class Association forums so hopefully no other buyer incurs the expense of discovering facts deliberately withheld by the seller

Interested to hear opinions and similar experiences.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

If the remediation that was recommended had been satisfactorily completed I’d say this was a total non-issue. If not tackled and has been left untreated, then I’d say you maybe have cause for discomfort. Personally, if I liked the boat anyway I’d use this to negotiate the price.

Your option A - what is the ‘several hundred pounds’ for?

 

[greeny]

If the remediation that was recommended had been satisfactorily completed I’d say this was a total non-issue. If not tackled and has been left untreated, then I’d say you maybe have cause for discomfort. Personally, if I liked the boat anyway I’d use this to negotiate the price.

Your option A - what is the ‘several hundred pounds’ for?

Lifting and surveying I would guess.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Humm , buyer beware I assume , were all the right questions asked by the Buyer ?

Was the seller asked , directly , if any remedial works had been carried out ?

Were the remedial works done properly ?

Is the craft worth more now that remedial works well done ?

The answer lies in wether one is happy that the craft has been well looked after ?

 

[eebygum]

If the remediation that was recommended had been satisfactorily completed I’d say this was a total non-issue. If not tackled and has been left untreated, then I’d say you maybe have cause for discomfort. Personally, if I liked the boat anyway I’d use this to negotiate the price.

Your option A - what is the ‘several hundred pounds’ for?

Several hundred pounds is for lift out and survey report.

Unfortunately the remediation from the original boatyard was not successful (sorry to be vague) and the survey recommends a complete reworking.

Your absolutely correct that it can be used as a point of negotiation, but when the boat is in the wrong place, time constraints on the work/launching etc. makes renegotiation is not an option.

 

[eebygum]

Humm , buyer beware I assume , were all the right questions asked by the Buyer ?

Was the seller asked , directly , if any remedial works had been carried out ?

Were the remedial works done properly ?

Is the craft worth more now that remedial works well done ?

The answer lies in whether one is happy that the craft has been well looked after ?

Thank you, good points.

Questions were asked, answers were given; but the broker had not been told there was an issue (in the previous reports, remedial work etc) by the seller; it was below the waterline so I only found out on haul out.

No, the boat is not worth more as the remedial action has no effect.

The boat is not ‘that special’; there are similiar boats on the market without the issue.

I guess it’s partly a moral question of do you let the seller walk away and deliberately mis-inform another buyer ?

 

[doug748]

I guess the vendor could just say he paid for remedial treatment and thought it had been successful, might even be true?

 

[Sticky Fingers]

In that case I’d walk away.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I guess the vendor could just say he paid for remedial treatment and thought it had been successful, might even be true?

Who knows, but I doubt that attempting to recover anything from the seller would be successful. And option C might be an option but without more information it’s impossible to know.

 

[jac]

I would walk from the sale and probably advise the owners association of the facts. if you have time to burn then you could raise the complaint with the broker but i would assume they would just explain that they told you the information in good faith.
If you are with the RYA you could try and speak to the RYA legal department for their opinion. You may have some claim against the owner if he deliberately withheld the information but you'll almost certainly need to seek redress through the smalls claim court which will cost you money and time. It might teach him a lesson but will be time consuming for you., may cost you money with no guarantee of success.

Given all that - walk

 

[Poignard]

When you buy privately you do not have the protection of the law to the same extent as when you buy from a dealer.

The only protection you have is that whatever it is you have bought must be 'as described'.

 

[eebygum]

When you buy privately you do not have the protection of the law to the same extent as when you buy from a dealer.

The only protection you have is that whatever it is you have bought must be 'as described'.

That’s a very valid point.

It was a standard ABYA contract which basically gives the buyer no protection from the seller not disclosing material facts.

If it was a private sale, I guess you have more protection if you go through the hassle/cost of the small claims court. But equally you would not want to be on the position of paying a large £3K deposit to a a private seller (without the escrow account protection you get from a broker).

I’ve walked away from the sale because of the misinformation, cost/timeliness of when the repairs would need… but I believe the seller should be held to account and not mislead another potential buyer ?

 

[eebygum]

Lifting and surveying I would guess.

Correct

 

[eebygum]

I would walk from the sale and probably advise the owners association of the facts. if you have time to burn then you could raise the complaint with the broker but i would assume they would just explain that they told you the information in good faith.
If you are with the RYA you could try and speak to the RYA legal department for their opinion. You may have some claim against the owner if he deliberately withheld the information but you'll almost certainly need to seek redress through the smalls claim court which will cost you money and time. It might teach him a lesson but will be time consuming for you., may cost you money with no guarantee of success.

Given all that - walk

That’s a fair summary.

I’ve walked, but it does not sit well with me that the seller will pull the same trick with the next prospective buyer.

The money is sunk and I’m not expecting to get any back.

I’m minded to publish and be damned.

At least what I publish is factually true and based upon independent surveyors reports and if it saves one buyer wasting several hundred pounds then fair enough.

 

[penfold]

Might be worth trying a claim via MCOL if in the UK, but quite dependent on what questions you or the broker asked the vendor.

 

[PhillM]

Suspect the broker will be more careful with the seller. Now it’s known they have to brief about it. Or be complicit

 

[Wandering Star]

I understood that if a broker becomes aware of defects or whatever, he’s obliged to divulge them to subsequent potential purchasers?

 

[Poignard]

That’s a fair summary.

I’ve walked, but it does not sit well with me that the seller will pull the same trick with the next prospective buyer.

The money is sunk and I’m not expecting to get any back.

I’m minded to publish and be damned.

At least what I publish is factually true and based upon independent surveyors reports and if it saves one buyer wasting several hundred pounds then fair enough.

I think you're flogging a dead horse with this.

Annoying as it may seem it is up to you to satisfy yourself as to the condition of the boat, and that's why you employ a surveyor.

The seller is under no obligation to tell you that the boat has been repaired.

He doesn't have to cry stinking fish.

You haven't a leg to stand on.

(How many more idioms can I cram into this post? )

 

[Snowgoose-1]

As mentioned above, the current owner would have to make it known to the broker if there were any known defects on the sale application form.

If remedial work had been done, it may not have been possible to find out that it had been successful until the hull had been in the water for some time ? Or have I misread your post ?

 

[rotrax]

I’ve walked away from the sale because of the misinformation, cost/timeliness of when the repairs would need… but I believe the seller should be held to account and not mislead another potential buyer ?

Then name the boat, make and model and current location. Stop anyone else falling into the same trap.

The Broker appears to be innocent.