What would you take / do ? UK to Baltic ??

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So here I am making up my list of must-haves, would like to have, have to get rid off etc. etc.

Why - boat destined as many know to be sailed from Solent to Baltic .... and like many of us - I don't want to miss out anythiung essential or advised. It's a tricky one as the boat is not so big that I can carry steamer trunks of gear - but it must be sensible.

So here goes .... What would YOU consider a) essential, b) well advised to have, c) good idea, d) thats nice but could be left off if becessary, e) luxury only if space available .... now consider that this is a 25ft motor sailer .... Sunrider 25 - very similar to Colvic 26 / Westerly Centaur .... There will be 3 people on board. Layout is typical 70's .... longitudinal galley stbd side main cabin. Stowage under stbd cockpit bench via trotter box. Double bunk / dining table combo to port and sea-bunk used for stpwage aft under the cockpit. Heads to port between main cabinb and forecabin, hanging space to stbd. The forecabin is typical vee-berth twin with 10 gal water tank under port bunk, 70 ltr fuel tank under stbd bunk.
We have 40HP perkins engine driving large 3 blade and a suit of sails in mod-heavy cloth etc. just refurbished. Fire extinguishers to replace or service. Flares to supplement with new - keeping old as extra.
There's plenty of 12V socket to run gear, total of 200 A/hr batterys and good charging from engine which likely will be run for 4 - 6 hrs per day ....
Trip will be split into 24-36 hr legs and occasionally 48+ depending on weather and winds etc.

So from the above - you can assume limited stowage and adequate fuel /water for 3-4 days - longer if winds favourable and economic with supplies.

So go on - give me a comparison with my list ... this should be interesting as I have not given a budget to work to ...........

Finally which way would you go ..... with a bit of detail why .... and of course when .... ?????

Interesting exercise .... and I can assure all that the crew who go will be fully involved in similar to ensure we have what we need to complete this voyage ... Boy am I looking forward to this ......

For those interested - I have plans to really put to test my PC Chart program as a part of the GPS Nav Group I run ---- so the program of tests will be in real time and real situation ... hopefully with no emergencys ....
 
Normal safety and navigation gear, charts(including Dutch Charts for inland waterways and Waddensee), Euros, Passport, ICC with CEVNI endorsment Schenegen Form and a folding bicycle. As to route it depends on how long you've got and the weather. Probably I should go along the UK coast to Ramsgate, then cross to Ostende and then decide whether to go through the Dutch Canals to Lawersoog or Delfzil and then to Helgoland or to go along the Dutch and Friesien Coast to Helgoland. There is not much shelter in German Bight and there is a danger of getting trapped in Nordeney if the wind goes NW when you are there. Another possibility is to go up the English Coast to Hawich and cross directly to Ijmuiden or Den Helder. I've only been via the Kiel Canal so cannot comment on the Eider route. In my view you need a large scale chart of the Elbe up to Braunsbuttel and you need to time your departure very carefully from Helgoland to catch the tide, stopping at Cuxhaven, if necessary. Rensberg is a fine town to overnight at towards the end of the Canal. Hope this helps. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Basic knowledge of a scandanavian language is quite unnecessary. In Holland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway, anyway, their English is almost as good as ours! In Germany, you can get by in English with enough German to order a beer (my level).

If you pick a decent weather window, the route outside the Fresian islands is lovely. If you don't, the canals Harlingen to Deftziel are a pleasant diversion. The north sea crossing Harwich to Den Helder is easy and stress free, because the shipping lanes are quite divergent there unlike the narrower parts of the English channel. You may well cross without seeing anything except a few fishing boats and gas platforms.

To get in/out of the Elbe to the Kiel canal, again pick a weather window and avoid >f5 wind against tide, and bear in mind the tide runs at 4 knots or so, so its worth catching it. There's lots of shipping, but its easy to keep to the side of the river and the big ships just power past. We got a chart for the Eider, but the weather was ok (just) for the Kiel canal, so we used that route. The Eider would take another day, we reckoned. It was just about possible to leave Wangerooge and make the Kiel canal on one tide, but only if you have a shallow draft. If not Spiekeroog to the canal may be possible if you really push it. We didn't try Helgoland, but that's the default, I guess. or you can stop off at Cuxhaven, which is a pleasant place and decent marina.

Essential equipment - what others have said. Just normal safety equipment, decent charts (of the Baltic too, because there are a lot of reefs etc), ICC + CEVNI. Charts are cheaper there than here, so buy them on your way (or borrow them if you can). You are supposed to have the regulations for the Kiel canal, but we didn't (we tried to buy them in Brunsbuttel but failed) and no one asked. You are also supposed to have a book for the dutch canals and someone recently posted a website on this form (or Scuttlebutt) where you can download an electronic copy. Again, we didn't and no one asked. Note that you don't need to buy a permit for the dutch canals, despite what Reeds Almanac say, but have a pocket full of 1 Euro coins, because you sometimes have to pay dues for bridges.

Enjoy the trip

Ali
 
I've written a lot about this, and an overview on the options to get there are on our Website here

You dont need much in Scandanavia that you wont have in England. If you PM me with an external email address, I'll send you our 'Practical Guide to Denmark and Sweden' that was printed in last years HROA mag. (And no, you dont need a HR to do it in either, many Danes and Swedes have boats smaller than yours)

High Season in Scandanavia is from late June to mid August, a bit longer in the South. Its often a good idea to leave the UK late May, unless you want to go through Holland, in which case maybe a bit earlier. Also, are you coming back? We leave our boat in Sweden (its cheaper and prettier). The CA do a good book on lay up possibilities (I know - its got some of my stuff in it!)
 
I live in Latvia and maintain apartment / boat in Estonia. So in fact the idea is to get to my home town of Ventspils and then decide whether to final at Tallinn or lower mast and moor at my house ....

As to CA - I was proposed as contact for Former Soviet Union side of Baltic ..... never heard anymore from them about it - despite plenty of e-mails back and forth etc
 
Few years ago went round the top of Denmark (via Skat / Kat) - I know it's a very busy shipping lane but it was a lot of fun doing it. We did that part by night to aid collision avoidance - lights are much easier to spot than shapes in the daytime. The North Sea crossing was the best part - all by DR with no GPS on board. Passing the oil rigs with their gas flames was an amazing sight at night time (and made confirming our DR position MUCH easier!)

The cruising grounds of southern Sweden/Norway are beautiful, and the people are incredibly friendly. But the cost of living is extremely high. If you do go via Holland - then stock up on HUGE amounts of beer. It is SO expensive in Sweden/Norway; we didn't stock up in the UK and so it turned out to be a very sober trip!

Good luck.

P.s. Want a crew?
 
Crew ..... yes

I have a few people interested and its down to me choosing when the time comes ...... my idea is myself and 1 other experienced + a novice who can basically steer.

So .... nluther@solent-life.co.uk and join the list ... let me know about yourself ....
 
Pandroid wrote:
"I've written a lot about this, and an overview on the options to get there are on our Website"

Excellent site, IMNSHO!

Henk
 
looked and useful .....

Methinks that my trip will follow similar ... hopefully.
 
Nigel,

In my view the difficult parts are:
- waiting for a weather window to get from England to the Netherlands
- the German Bight from Den Helder to Brunsbüttel
The rest is, compared to these two, peanuts.

If you want more advice on the second part, I would like to know:
- when will you leave: February, May or July?
- how much time do you have to get from England to Brunsbüttel (i.e. one week or four)?
- I take it your Sunrider 25 is a bilge keeler with a depth of approx. 3 feet
(please give exact depth)?
- this 'PC Chart program' you mention, what make is it, does it read BSB (Maptech) charts?
- what make of GPS do you use, are you familiar with using a GPS or do you prefer DR?
- do you plan to take a laptop on board?

The last three questions may seem of less importance but could save you the costs of new charts for the German Bight.

Henk
 
replies ....

- when will you leave: February, May or July?

Most likely early to mid summer - if missed this year then late spring 2006

- how much time do you have to get from England to Brunsbüttel (i.e. one week or four)?

For the entire trip I estimate 4 weeks - if quicker fine, if longer so be it. To Brunsbuttel I estimate about 1 - 1.5 weeks as I intend doing a stop every 24 - 36 hrs.

- I take it your Sunrider 25 is a bilge keeler with a depth of approx. 3 feet (please give exact depth)?

1.1m ..... if E/S shows 0.7m on display, as I do not offset the displayed depth ... then I start to float - yes it is a bilge keeler.

- this 'PC Chart program' you mention, what make is it, does it read BSB (Maptech) charts?

Seaclear and yes it does read BSB-KAP charts

- what make of GPS do you use, are you familiar with using a GPS or do you prefer DR?

17yrs ships navigator on ships so DR / EP etc. etc no prob.... 49 yrs old now - sailed on boats since 5 .... have Magellan 50 GPS and also HH eTrex all linked to PC ... in fact I have a fixed 12V mini PC system dedicated and also more than one notebook PC.

- do you plan to take a laptop on board?

See above answer .... I have a 12V mini fixed desk system to install and will also carry 2 notebooks as backup. The boat has multiple 12V and 240V outlets as well as the 12V DC - DC Notebook power supply + inverter if needed.

So in answer to your post - I think that I can cover quite well in navigation terms the areas ... of course I will be carrying back-up paper charts - admittedly maybe not so many detailed ones as would be without the PC systems.
Any other questions - I'm happy to answer - as it all goes into the compilation to assess final inventory and requirements .... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Nigel,

Clear answers!
Apart from maps etc. about which I will send you a PM, they lead me to the following hints:

First part:
1) Go for Den Helder
2) If not possible go for IJmuiden, but don't park your boat in the marina there, but take your rest in Amsterdam (3 hours sailing extra, choose marina Sixhaven, the best!).
From there to Kornwerderzand (1 day).
3) Do not, repeat NOT, go for Rotterdam. From there 'up' is an endless hassle with canals and bridges.

Second part:
Because your boat is just 25 feet, I now only consider the case that you will not be able to go from Den Helder or Harlingen to Brunsbüttel over seas.
This is the most likely case.
Of course, when the weather is really fine, go from Den Helder or Kornwerderzand over seas to the entrance of the Kieler Kanal (NOK) in approx. 36 hours.
I will be jealous!

Now, let's consider the worst case, which is (except for the last day) all over the Wadden (= from Den Helder to the Elbe river 'under' the islands):
You (because it's your first time here) will need daylight for all trips that are in the Wadden area. But: your boat is very well suited for the Wadden.
1) From Den Helder in daytrips: Harlingen, Ameland, Lauwersoog, Borkum, Langeoog, and then to Brunsbüttel: 6 days!
2) From Kornwerderzand in daytrips: Ameland, Lauwersoog, etc,: 5 days.

With a depth of 3 feet there are other possibilities if you know how to handle the tides. For example: Lauwersoog, Norderney, Wangerooge, Brunsbüttel.
You might even save an extra day by drying out somewhere and using the second tide on one day for the next part...

While writing this, I realise that this information is not enough at all.
If you are interested I will do the rest in one or more PM's.

What is interesting for other readers:
- The Wadden is a beautiful area
- With a small boat you will need the Wadden, unless the weather is really fine
- Because the Eastern part of the German Bight is heavy sailing most of the time
- The maps for the Wadden are never up to date (can't be)
- Do never enter the Elbe (from approx. Elbe 1) unless the tide is with you
- The current on the Elbe can be 6 (and not just 4) knots
- Current against wind is a real danger that you will want to avoid there

Henk

P.S.: really always up to date 'maps' of the Wadden with a GPS: http://www.filo.nl/users/nopoints/indexeng.php
Do you need them? Consider for example the changes here: http://www.filo.nl/users/nopoints/ae041222.gif
and know that these are not on your most recent map, and that, except for Borkum and Helgoland, all the approaches to the islands in the German Bight are really dangerous to enter with wind force greater than 5 (some say 4), and current.
Or take a look at all the changes in this area in 2004: http://www.filo.nl/users/nopoints/2004.htm
 
Two bits of equipment we found essential and which others haven't mentioned are:

Bow ladder/step- as you'll rarely berth alongside in marinas and tying up to rocks or trees on islands means you've got to get off the bow.

A long steel hook for picking up stern bouys- Most marinas have posts at the back but in marinas with rock bottoms that's not possible so they have buoys. We bought ours in a German chandlery and now wouldn't be without it. It's stainless steel about 3 foot long with an eye at one end to tie your stern line to and a sort of shepherds crook bend at the other.

Also, I understand from Jan 2005 the rules about holding tanks are supposed to be enforced. The rules were in force in some areas last year but we met no-one who'd ever heard of them actually being enforced. Another tip is take about 10 litres of spirits- you'll be very popular but stand carefully to one side if you invite anyone aboard for a drink! Gin was £28 for a 70cl bottle last year in the Swedish System Bolaget stores!!
 
Looking forward to the PM .... and the trip has me excited .... trouble for me is work and house repairs interfering with the real thing in life - sailing .....

As regards tides etc. - as long as wind is not heaping seas up against tides - which I know entrance to Elbe can do - I have 40HP engine and can make up to 7kts .... so I can punch just about anything .... even that last few feet to get berthed when tide is out enough for me to touch bottom !!
 
One option not mentioned so far is to go via the Limfjord. I've done this a number of times and found it very pleasant. The entrance may be somewhat uncomfortable, but that is just a short stretch. If you have time, there is pleasant sailing in the Fjord itself. On the eastern side the town of Aalborg is interesting.
I took the Eider route in 1990 and found this one also very interesting. However, the river winds a lot and you would have to motor most of it. I think it is worth the detour. The Eider-route merges with the Kiel-canal near Rendsburg. This route can be done with standing mast.
Alcoholics are very expensive in Sweden and Norway, but cheaper in Denmark, although probably not as cheap as in England, Holland and Germany. The quality of the danish beer is excelent. Besides the well-known brands Carlsberg and Tuborg, there are a number of local brands, which usually are cheaper.
As HenkM indicated there are different possibilities to go thrue the Netherlands. The so-called "standing-mast route" is almost impossible nowadays. This means don't enter into the Netherlands south of IJmuiden. I fully agree with my namesake that one should go straight from IJmuiden to Amsterdam. I think it is by far the most interesting city in that country. I would choose to go from Amsterdam across the IJsselmeer to either Kornwerderzand or to Stavoren. I guess that it is possible to sail from Stavoren along the frisian canals to Lauwersoog with standing mast.
From Kornwerderzand you have the option to enter the frisian canals in Harlingen and from there to Lauwersoog or to go to one of the frisian islands. As Henkm suggested Ameland is on the way east. I have never been there and have no opinion. I assume you only can go there at high tide. Another option is Terschelling, which can be reached in all conditions. Be aware of the buoys and follow them strictly. I feel that an optodate chart is necessary for the Waddensea. However, the changes occur very often, so a chart is never really uptodate.
To give a bottle of hard liquor to a Scandinavian is the greatest thing you can do to him. Even if you don't drink hard liquor yourself, do take some bottles with you.
On your way east stop at Bornholm. I liked the island very much. I stayed once in the capital, Rönne, in 1991 and in 1992, twice in Vang, a small harbour on the NW-side of the Island. From Bornholm it is an easy day's sail to the S-tip of Sweden. There used to be a harbour at that point, but no other facilities (no town, bars, restaurants, etc).
To enjoy the sailing along the swedish coast good charts are necessary. There are a great number of islands and to go between them, requires good charts. I think I bought these charts in Copenhagen at the main chart-shop. If I remember correctly it was close to Nyhavn, the old port in the center of the city. (Nyhavn of course means "New Harbour")
Most Scandinavians speak english, but I found it helpfull to start in danish or swedish to tell them in their own language "I don't speak danish/swedish, do you speak english" Be careful though, when you know how to pronounce this, they may think you really speak the language.
Henk W.
 
Getting there - If the weather is really lousy you can take the mast down and take canals into the elbe above Cuxhaven. Otherwise the rule is to reach the Elbe light float at low water.
Mooring methods are different. I bought a Scandinavian buoy hook in Kiel (its got a hook on one end, a loop on the other). Tie a warp to the loop and use the hook when mooring to a sternbuoy. Bow to the quay.
Several countries use "boxes" - row of vertical posts about a boats length from the quay. You put bowlines from the stern quarters to the posts and moor bows on. Needs fair amount of rope and practice.
You will also need a sternanchor where there arent buoys or boxes.
You should have a holding tank. You should take plenty of spares (winch, engine, pump etc.) You will have to get new gas bottles and regulator.
 
Thoughts to ponder ....

Many good suggestions ......

Looking through various web sites and also posts here .... first point that struck me ---- hasn't boating changed from the days of cast-off on a budget and now PC's, GPS etc. etc.

As to possible route to take I am still 50-50 as to Kiel Canal or over the top ...... with good weather over the top could be really interesting .... but longer.

One point that has to be sorted ............. as a Professional Qualified Ships Officer and having sailed all my life literally - ICC and CEVNI ............. items I have avoided for years .... now its caught up with me !! It's either that or Yacht Captains Licence from Latvia or Estonia ......... as they do not stipulate Nationality as the ICC does......

I'm now well into listing gear in various priority's .... but feel that in the end its going to be hard to off-load some items that have become part of my cruising inventory ....... Wife ??
 
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