What would you have done?

[dom]

Sailing west towards cape point we came across a "vessels" on AIS whose status was "Underway" when we got close we found it was a fixed gas production platform.

Son of a beach?

 

[Giblets]

They used to tell Solent they were doing training with a life-like dummy. That used to be on 16 for all to hear.

SCG now move them to Ch67 where the Clipper yachts report the start and end of the MOB exercises.

 

[capnsensible]

SCG now move them to Ch67 where the Clipper yachts report the start and end of the MOB exercises.

Ah. :encouragement:

 

[JumbleDuck]

Those foreign bloody sand banks. Like that South African bank which refused to give way to the Clipper boat. The beach didn't even put up two balls or red over red.

That's the one. Foreigners, eh?

 

[JumbleDuck]

SCG now move them to Ch67 where the Clipper yachts report the start and end of the MOB exercises.

How do they get temporary exemption for the IRPCS?

 

[lw395]

How do they get temporary exemption for the IRPCS?

The whole area is part of the Dockyard Port.

If they've been given permission to play sill buggers, that probably over-rides colregs.
It sounds as if they were going very slowly for a time before it became apparent there was a collision risk?
Perhaps they actually started their slow course before the OP started on the collision heading?
The OP came out of Portmouth? from there you will be able to see something the size of a Clipper boat from the moment you put your sails up and make yourself stand on vessel? So when these 3 Clippers first came into sight, is it likely that the OP was not on a collision course and may even have been give way vessel?
These things are not always black and white.
What precisely is the up-side of sailing straight towards three large yachts that are moving very slowly in some kind of formation?


There is a genre of colregs whine which seems to start with 'and then this vessel was give way under Rx.x'.
Where did it come from? Did it steam over the horizon or did Spock teleport it into your path?
If you hear the other side of such a story, odds are so-called stand on vessel was being watched by the second vessel, which he didn't notice until he created the incident by altering course to become (in his opinion) stand-on.

Unless there was some absolute imperative to follow the OP's closehauled line, would you not just either tack before shouting range or crack off a bit, depending on where you wanted to go? If you couldn't squeeze up a bit and go behind them?

Being the Solent at the weekend, it's also more than likely there were other vessels in the area who the 3 Clippers and the OP needed to keep clear of...

Also I think in a light breeze, a close-hauled vessel 'standing on' is often on a sticky wicket if they don't head a constant course as the wind shifts.

It's not always totally clear.

So an extra reason for not picking unnecessary colregs fights with numpties and muppets IMHO is just in case one is not aware of 100% of the circumstances and might not be 100% in the right.

 

[JumbleDuck]

It sounds as if they were going very slowly for a time before it became apparent there was a collision risk?

You make many good points. On that one, though, who is stand-on and who is give-way does not depend on who was first. A sailing craft has every right to create a collision risk with a power vessel by changing course and the power vessel is then obliged to give way as usual. Of course once this collision risk has been created, the sailing craft is stand on, as usual.

 

[lw395]

You make many good points. On that one, though, who is stand-on and who is give-way does not depend on who was first. A sailing craft has every right to create a collision risk with a power vessel by changing course and the power vessel is then obliged to give way as usual. Of course once this collision risk has been created, the sailing craft is stand on, as usual.

The boundaries of how quickly a sailing vessel might reasonably expect a power vessel to alter course etc have been the subject of some late night debate around the bar. I would admit to being much surer of my precise rights under racing rules, which are much clearer about how quickly one must respond.

In the area in question, there is also the joker that as you sail off the bank outside Portsmouth, you often find about two knots of current changing your VMG as you get to the deep water.
It's rarely a dull place to sail!

 

[awol]

Also I think in a light breeze, a close-hauled vessel 'standing on' is often on a sticky wicket if they don't head a constant course as the wind shifts.

This is one that I sometimes worry about (but not often!). Is a "best course to windward" with intrinsic changes of speed and direction consistent with Rule 17 "shall keep her course and speed"?
I would argue it is but I can understand confusion being created in the mind of non-sailing power boats.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The boundaries of how quickly a sailing vessel might reasonably expect a power vessel to alter course etc have been the subject of some late night debate around the bar. I would admit to being much surer of my precise rights under racing rules, which are much clearer about how quickly one must respond.

Yes, one of horrible holes in IRPCS is the failure to define things like "in good time". Two different vessels might have wildly difefrent, but equally reasonable, notions of when a risk of collision arises.

In the area in question, there is also the joker that as you sail off the bank outside Portsmouth, you often find about two knots of current changing your VMG as you get to the deep water.
It's rarely a dull place to sail!

Yes, I can see that that would liven things up a bit!

 

[[163233]]

I think I'd have just put a tack in and forgotten about it.

I did see a clipper yacht doing a mob drill in the Solent not long ago and they did announce it on the VHF on that occasion. I wanted to try slip in and pinch their dummy but the wife wouldn't have it.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I did see a clipper yacht doing a mob drill in the Solent not long ago and they did announce it on the VHF on that occasion. I wanted to try slip in and pinch their dummy but the wife wouldn't have it.

All you had to do was disguise yourself as a sandbank.

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

Yes, one of horrible holes in IRPCS is the failure to define things like "in good time". Two different vessels might have wildly difefrent, but equally reasonable, notions of when a risk of collision arises. ...

I think the 'horrible hole' is a feature not a bug, to ensure the Rules work for all kinds of vessels, and for 'widely different, but equally reasonable,notions'.

 

[capnsensible]

I think the 'horrible hole' is a feature not a bug, to ensure the Rules work for all kinds of vessels, and for 'widely different, but equally reasonable,notions'.

Its for pedants and lawyers to squabble over whilst sailors get on with sailing. :encouragement:

 

[peter gibbs]

Most of us have been tweaked at some time by others relying on stand-on provisions of COL REGS and so raising the chances of collision. I do think the training schools have a share of blame to assume over this issue, teaching it as some form of right when common sense dictates the contrary.

After 35 years of sailing European waters I would advise anyone not to place any faith in stand-on being sensibly applied; the overarching duty of all navigators is at all times to passage so as to minimise the risk of collision. Full stop. If that means hanging back in an impending close encounter etc so be it.

PWG

 

[Seajet]

Agreed, as long as one makes ones' intentions very clear; no surprise to anyone I was once given the book ' How To Be A Wally ' - the Highway Code section shows three Capri's at a roundabout all dithering as to who's on the right, than all going for it at the same time resulting in a mangled heap in the middle

 

[RichardS]

Agreed, as long as one makes ones' intentions very clear;

Indeed .... although I doubt whether the stand on vessel "hanging back" is ever going to meet your sensible criteria. :ambivalence:

Richard

 

[[2574]]

The trouble with applying this “preemptive defensive’ strategy of the COLREGS is that this will confuse the professionals who expect a vessel to stand on when it should do. What freaks the commercial guys is when WAFIs start various defensive shenanigans when they are not expecting such action. So one often finds oneself between a rock and a hard place in deciding whether to stand on where one should......or not.....

 

[JumbleDuck]

The trouble with applying this “preemptive defensive’ strategy of the COLREGS is that this will confuse the professionals who expect a vessel to stand on when it should do.

OK then ... with how long to go before impact do you consider that a risk of collision exists?

 

[RichardS]

OK then ... with how long to go before impact do you consider that a risk of collision exists?

When it gets to the point where I won't be able to get out of the way with at least twice the length of the target boat between me and it?

Richard