What would you have done?

[[2574]]

OK then ... with how long to go before impact do you consider that a risk of collision exists?

Identification of the risk of collision is often long before the concluded probability of collision. My view is that a complex balance of factors (including factors such as sea state, ability of vessel(s) to manoeuvre, sea room, other vessels in proximity and their likely action) considered in aggregate will determine one’s personal decision point as to when to take collision avoidance action.

I personally had this mental process severely tested at the north end of Kilbrannan Sound just the week before last. There was plenty of sea room and no other vessels in proximity. My vessel was motor sailing so could easily manoeuvre. I would say the two vessels were less than 30 seconds from collision when I took collision avoidance action.

 

[JumbleDuck]

When it gets to the point where I won't be able to get out of the way with at least twice the length of the target boat between me and it?

That's quite elegant,

 

[scotty123]

Identification of the risk of collision is often long before the concluded probability of collision. My view is that a complex balance of factors (including factors such as sea state, ability of vessel(s) to manoeuvre, sea room, other vessels in proximity and their likely action) considered in aggregate will determine one’s personal decision point as to when to take collision avoidance action.

I personally had this mental process severely tested at the north end of Kilbrannan Sound just the week before last. There was plenty of sea room and no other vessels in proximity. My vessel was motor sailing so could easily manoeuvre. I would say the two vessels were less than 30 seconds from collision when I took collision avoidance action.

Was your cone hoisted?

 

[[2574]]

Was your cone hoisted?

No. As it happened it didn't matter. The motor boat approached fast (25kts?) from our port passing to our starboard across our bows. If we were a motor boat he was the give way boat and if we were a sailing boat same applies. We were on starboard tack with a big genoa, a cone wouldn't have been visible.

 

[scotty123]

No. As it happened it didn't matter. The motor boat approached fast (25kts?) from our port passing to our starboard across our bows. If we were a motor boat he was the give way boat and if we were a sailing boat same applies. We were on starboard tack with a big genoa, a cone wouldn't have been visible.

Of course it "mattered", you are applying collision regs as if only the other vessel was at fault, in your opinion.
Not sure 'pick & choose' applies to IRPCS, they are not a curate's egg.

 

[[2574]]

Of course it "mattered", you are applying collision regs as if only the other vessel was at fault, in your opinion.
Not sure 'pick & choose' applies to IRPCS, they are not a curate's egg.

I have not apportioned fault, you did that. If you prefer I will exchange the word “matter” for “alter the required actions of the two vessels”

Why do we have to be so snotty in correspondence about these things? It is so predictable and very dull, I will not respond further.

 

[RichardS]

Of course it "mattered", you are applying collision regs as if only the other vessel was at fault, in your opinion.
Not sure 'pick & choose' applies to IRPCS, they are not a curate's egg.

Robih is correct. According to his post, he was the stand on vessel whether he was sailing or motor-sailing. If the other vessel was give way vessel under either of those conditions and it didn't give way, then the other vessel is 100% at fault as regards not giving way.

Richard

 

[lw395]

When it gets to the point where I won't be able to get out of the way with at least twice the length of the target boat between me and it?

Richard

You can easily get within 1/2 a length of a crosschannel ferry while sat in the pub around here....
It's very hard to make rigid rules about how much CPA is enough, the big variable is how sure are you about what the other bugger is doing.

 

[lw395]

No. As it happened it didn't matter. The motor boat approached fast (25kts?) from our port passing to our starboard across our bows. If we were a motor boat he was the give way boat and if we were a sailing boat same applies. We were on starboard tack with a big genoa, a cone wouldn't have been visible.

A vessel doing more than 3x your speed is just going to steer around you, even if it's me in a fast dinghy and you are give way.
There is no risk of collision if the fast agile vessel is not driven by an idiot, therefore the whole thing is a colregs non-encounter.

 

[Seven Spades]

Submit a chirp report. There is no doubt that it will have the desired effect.

 

[RichardS]

You can easily get within 1/2 a length of a crosschannel ferry while sat in the pub around here....
It's very hard to make rigid rules about how much CPA is enough, the big variable is how sure are you about what the other bugger is doing.

A pub is always stand on so that's reasonably clear cut under ColRegs. :encouragement:

Richard

 

[lw395]

A pub is always stand on so that's reasonably clear cut under ColRegs. :encouragement:

Richard

But should the Lively Lady or the Victory give way to the Bridge Tavern?
The American is always going to be in the wrong?

 

[Seajet]

A pub is always stand on so that's reasonably clear cut under ColRegs. :encouragement:

Richard

I've sometimes thought the Still and West a bit vulnerable to any ferry or ship as they trundle by, stand on or not...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq-ahulpV4k

 

[[2574]]

A vessel doing more than 3x your speed is just going to steer around you, even if it's me in a fast dinghy and you are give way.
There is no risk of collision if the fast agile vessel is not driven by an idiot, therefore the whole thing is a colregs non-encounter.

Skipper was seemingly not at the helm or on watch as he approached us. His head popped up after he had passed across our bows and we had taken avoiding action, he looked at us and gave a wave. The vis was poor, he wouldn’t have seen us if he’d had a quick look round before going below to put the kettle on.

 

[Seajet]

We were off St Malo once when a small coaster came past the other way heading north - I could see straight through both open wheelhouse doors, nobody there...

Then again we once followed a Contessa 28 with windvane attached - as soon as they cleared the Needles the young couple engaged the windvane and ' retired below '.

The boat did two complete 360's with the sheets pinned in but no-one appeared on deck, I trust they had a jolly time

 

[scotty123]

Robih is correct. According to his post, he was the stand on vessel whether he was sailing or motor-sailing. If the other vessel was give way vessel under either of those conditions and it didn't give way, then the other vessel is 100% at fault as regards not giving way.

Richard

The point I was making, is him ignoring regs, by not hoisting a cone, then pontificating about another vessel also potentially ignoring them. You cannot choose which rules suit only you.

 

[RichardS]

The point I was making, is him ignoring regs, by not hoisting a cone, then pontificating about another vessel also potentially ignoring them. You cannot choose which rules suit only you.

The rules are not equivalent, which is why virtually no-one raises a cone and I am not aware that the breaching of that rule has ever caused a single accident. The breaching of the "give way" rules has caused many deaths at sea and is clearly many orders of magnitude more important. We don't actually know whether the OP had a cone raised or not but, either way, it is not relevant to the incident under discussion.

Richard

 

[scotty123]

The rules are not equivalent, which is why virtually no-one raises a cone and I am not aware that the breaching of that rule has ever caused a single accident. The breaching of the "give way" rules has caused many deaths at sea and is clearly many orders of magnitude more important. We don't actually know whether the OP had a cone raised or not but, either way, it is not relevant to the incident under discussion.

Richard

He has already admitted he didn't have one hoisted, the fact that "I am not aware", is not relevant either, one cannot pick & choose which suits you personally. Rules/regulations are there to prevent misunderstandings/confusion, a cone would have confirmed he was a motor powered vessel & helped in remedial action by give way vessel. The powerboat skipper, might not even have been aware, which way the sailboat was even pointing, considering their relative speeds & poor visibility reported, a cone might have helped clarify this.

 

[Resolution]

Robih is correct. According to his post, he was the stand on vessel whether he was sailing or motor-sailing. If the other vessel was give way vessel under either of those conditions and it didn't give way, then the other vessel is 100% at fault as regards not giving way.

Richard

Bit of a Catch 22. If there was no cone visible to the motor vessel then my reading of the IRPCS is that he should assume the yacht is sailing, in which case it is the stand on vessel and the motor vessel should keep clear. If there had been a collision and it came to court, how strong would motor boat's argument be "I thought he was motoring despite not showing a cone" ? (And even then he was the stand on vessel....)
Would the court adjudge both parties at fault?

As a mild drift, how many of us have ever used our motoring cones? The only time I have seen them in frequent use was in the Baltic, off Germany.

 

[RichardS]

Bit of a Catch 22. If there was no cone visible to the motor vessel then my reading of the IRPCS is that he should assume the yacht is sailing, in which case it is the stand on vessel and the motor vessel should keep clear. If there had been a collision and it came to court, how strong would motor boat's argument be "I thought he was motoring despite not showing a cone" ? (And even then he was the stand on vessel....)
Would the court adjudge both parties at fault?

As a mild drift, how many of us have ever used our motoring cones? The only time I have seen them in frequent use was in the Baltic, off Germany.

"Even then he (the OP) was stand on vessel" so if there had been a collision the motor vessel would be 100% liable for not "giving way" under that section of ColRegs. No Catch 22, surely?

Richard