What was so great about the Pope?

If anyone wants a truly enlightening view on religion, my I suggest that you read "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett, which is a truly hilarous story based around a thinly disguised Catholic Church.
 
Actually I don't think I involved myself in that bit, it was the toilet humour bit.

However I would agree that the Pope did very little, Ronald Reagan I think did a lot, his ruthless opposition and upping of the stakes was what eventually lead the imploding, though of course none of these things occurred in a vacuum.
 
He was, surely, yet another example of :

'all power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely'

He was only human after all, whatever others might think !!
 
Most people who lean to right give Reagan the credit all catholics and many other religous types give the pope the credit left leaners give Gorachov the credit. In truth comunism fell because it was a crap system of social engineering run by ruthless dictators. A bit like the church which is slowley falling.
 
I Think the true credit goes to Reagan and Gorbochev. Reagan had the balls to raise the stakes and spend so much money on defence that the russians couldn't keep up, Gorbochev had the wisdom, and the gonads to see what has happening and effectively to publicly admit the systems failings. (a difficult enought task for any person, unheard of in a politition)
Anyway, how the bloody hell did a discussion on the pope mutate into cold war politics? /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
Nichel, thank you for your contribution. As a non-Catholic, I can agree with most of your comments. It is a refreshing change to read a positive contribution reather the mass of cynical trend setting comment of those who denigrate faith in a supreme being before whom we will all give an account one day. - this will no doubt generate some reaction.
 
I find it difficult kissing anyones ass supreme being or not. Why is it that others fall to their knees and trample over any and everyone in their haste to do so?
 
John Paul II was a true leader of his church and not a follower of fashion. Whilst I may not agree with his stance on some issues, there's no doubt that he defended the sanctity of life and the rights of the poor and humble. Sometimes, as in Poland, he defended his beliefs against a powerful state and ruthless regime- a truly courageous man. He was also the first pope to get out and visit his people around the world on an itinerary which would have been punishing to a man half his age.

Though not a practising catholic, I greatly admired him. Contrast him with the limp leadership of the CE which seems to be driven by populist fashion, and look at the results.
 
Nobody in the C of E is actualy deluded enough to believe in god are they. My son tells me they are just priests paid by the state to keep up a now defunct illusion.
 
Thanks for your comments. It seemed fairly obvious where this thread was going to go, and I wanted to get a note of realism in before the misconceptions, untruths and misunderstood half-truths took over.

It's very easy in our materialistic world to make a god of ourselves. The late Pope, I think, was someone who, notwithstanding his 'power', always saw God in others.
 
I have the utmost respect for what the Pope did as a young man in Poland under the Nazis. I however cannot agree that he stood up for the sancitiy of life - whose life? not the africans dying of aids, not the irish girls dying in back street abortion clinics, not the poor dying of starvation.
I also have seen first hand on some of my travels exactly how much respect the catholic church has for the poor an humble, and it aint' pretty.
 
erm .. what's the Judgement Day got to do with the greatness or otherwise of a man holding the Papal Office. An office and institution which I may add was created to try and perpetuate the secular power of the Roman Empire .. The Roman Catholic Church began with the conversion to Christianity of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Christianity was not made the official religion of the Roman Empire until the edicts of Theodosius I c 380 A.D. Constantine, from 312 A.D. until his death in 337, was engaged in the process of simultaneously building pagan temples and Christian churches, and was slowly turning over the reigns of his pagan priesthood to the Bishop of Rome. However, the family of Constantine did not give up the last vestige of his pagan priesthood until after the disintegration of the Roman Empire -- that being the title the emperors bore as heads of the pagan priesthood -- Pontifex Maximus -- a title which the popes would inherit. (The popes also inherited Constantine's titles as the self-appointed civil head of the church -- Vicar of Christ and Bishop of Bishops.) so in fact, rather than being St Peter's successor Il Papa is fact the successor of the Pagan Emperor Constantine who saw the opportunities of the new religion to retain and grow power!
 
Hi Jimi,

I have not read all other replies yet, but he was not the worst. Initially Popes were only bishops and they fought about the title. There were popes and anti-popes, chasing each other out of the Vatican and a few other places.

In one case, when one Pope (forgot which one) was chase to Milano, on his arrival were 17 Prostitutes. One year later, were over 180 prostitutes.

Another good one was of course the Grandpa of Lucretia Borgia. She slept with her brothers, with her father and eventually slept and married her Grandfather who either was a pope ot became a pope later. So she was the only woman why became her own grandmother.

All this and more about the Catholic Church comes form in interesting book, DER PFAFFENSPIEGEL by Otto von Corvin published 1860. Dont know if it was ever translated into english.

Also check the location of the old brothels in the UK, not sure there, but in germany, brothels were hardley more than 100m from the catholic cathedral.


ongolo
 
He was entirely consistent in his beliefs, which was sometimes a good thing and sometimes not. For all his achievements (and they were considerable in many ways, particularly in humanising the office of Pope) I hope that his successor is a more enlightened, less reactionary man. At the time of his appointment, he was probably the right person for the job; he just outstayed his welcome a bit.

I think it's a bit much to hold him personally accountable for the scourges of AIDS (how about the contribution of Thabo Mbeki, amongst others?) and overpopulation, though I concede that his pronouncements didn't help matters.

Not a Catholic, btw, so not really qualified to comment :-)
 
Yes, but according the the bible the universe appeared on a tuesday afternoon, 4000 years ago, or something like that! When everyone knows it was actully sneezed out of the nostril of a giant turtle in 7500 BC!.

Anyway as the Catholic church has issued various 'absolute' decrees over the years such as the earth being flat, the sun orbiting around the earth, etc. etc, I'm inclined to take any such statements with a pinch of salt. History is always a matter of opinion, and the Bible is one reference work, there are millions of other, equally as valid books,
 
H'mm...rights...


Who determines them, and whose rights take precedence. If we take "Thou shalt not kill" as a given, who determines (as it seems someone has) that it actually means, in addition, or by your actions, directly or otherwise, cause someone to be killed, become killed or otherwise suffer harm, wheter harme defined by them, or by a third party who may, or may not, be themselves harmed or killed.

As for the Pope, a great and compassionate human being who spent his life striving for what he believed to be right without one eye on the next election or court case. Could you forgive the person who tried to kill you?
 
Yes, but the Bible was never meant to be a reference work on the scientific creation of the Universe [or the history of the Middle East for that matter]. It is, however, a commentary on God's relationship with Man, and, in that field is authoritative.

I personally take quite seriosuly the words of the Son of God when he says to Peter 'You are the rock on which I will build my Church'.

That is the foundation of the Church, and the creation of office of Pope in one small sentence.
 
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