What was so great about the Pope?

Erm

Very subjective interpretation .. and condemning other christians really ...

But even so to accept it for the sake of argument what's your reaction to this extract?


Extract from


By 500 AD the Bible had been translated into over 500 languages. Just one century later, by 600 AD, it has been restricted to only one language: the Latin Vulgate! The only organized and recognized church at that time in history was the Catholic Church of Rome, and they refused to allow the scripture to be available in any language other than Latin. Those in possession of non-Latin scriptures would be executed! This was because only the priests were educated to understand Latin, and this gave the church ultimate power… a power to rule without question… a power to deceive… a power to extort money from the masses. Nobody could question their “Biblical” teachings, because few people other than priests could read Latin. The church capitalized on this forced-ignorance through the 1,000 year period from 400 AD to 1,400 AD knows as the “Dark and Middle Ages”.

Pope Leo the Tenth established a practice called the “selling of indulgences” as a way to extort money from the people. He offered forgiveness of sins for a fairly small amount of money. For a little bit more money, you would be allowed to indulge in a continuous lifestyle of sin, such as keeping a mistress. Also, through the invention of “Purgatory”, you could purchase the salvation of your loved-one’s souls. The church taught the ignorant masses, “As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the troubled soul from Purgatory springs!” Pope Leo the Tenth showed his true feelings when he said, “The fable of Christ has been quite profitable to us!”
 
Why dont the god botherers answer the paedophile question. Why does the church attract so many deviants. Is this belief and paedophilia inextricably linked.
If we look at the mindset of a paedophile who believes that a small child is actualy enticing them and we examine the thinking that allows people to take the same leap of faith the same supression the same inability to take responsability for their actions we come out at the same place.
 
I'm not sure there are any more or less 'deviants' to use your word in the church than there are anywhere else, however the problem was the church's reaction to accusations. whereas in other fields these accustations are fairly ruthlessly investigated and prosecuted, the churhc chose to ignore such accusations and protect its own.
 
Of course there is so much in the history of the deviant Catholic Church that cannot possibly be justified and the practise of an (unscriptural) celibate priesthood is no doubt a factor in the dreadful paedophilia(?) that has been taking place with many paedophiles taking advantage of the opportunities provided by the position. However our discussion has been about the contribution made by the late Pope and these other issues are ultra vires. I believe he has made a great contribution to freedom and has spoken up for the oppressed and taken a stand on many moral issues where other Christian leaders have prevaricated.
 
My point of view was that over the last 26 years or whatever paedophilia has been willfuly denied. Those suffering from the after affects have been fought tooth and nail. While the Great Pontiff precided over the greatest gang of paedophiles on earth.

When you cast off reality like paedophiles you lose your humanity. All of these god botherers would see you burn for your sins if they had their way they would burn you at the stake right here and now. The insanity has not changed we the people have curbed their powers.
 
moral issues...

well, last week he declared himself in favour of keeping terri schiavo alive at whatever cost. i couldn't help wondering why he too wasn't stuffed full of tubes and kept on life support indefinitely
 
"Agree totally. By his attitudes to AIDS prevention, women's rights and homosexual equality this man helped shorten the lives of millions, and make the lives of millions more a misery. Not very "christian" in my (atheist) view!"

Wishbone, with the greatest respect, there is no way the John Paul II "helped shorten the lives of millions". How many guys do you think, just before they were about to put on a condom, said to themselves "Oh my, the pope said that using a piece of rubber will consign my soul to immortal damnation. I won't use this, and the devil take the hindmost". First you assume they had the condoms in the first place. Second you assume they would take a blind bit of notice of anything other than their sexual desire.

I'm a fully paid up member of the areligious persuasion, but I have no wish to assign blanket blame where it does not lie.

This is not to say that J-P II did not make a lot of mistakes. There is no doubt however that he did a lot of good, nor that he inspired a lot of people to do good. When you consider the wonders done and not done by other world leaders, the man has no competition. Sure he was a product of the country he came from, of all the bother visited upon that country, and of the fact that his formative years were enveloped in total oppression, first by the Nazis and later by the Soviets. Ironically, he reflected in his strong centralisation of authority the evils of the Soviet system he was instrumental in dismantling.

There's no denying the paedophilia and loads of other evils done by priests. Nor that the R.C. church makes a horse's ass of how they handle matters sexual. They are not unique in that sadly. It is a tough business figuring out how to manage members who misbehave, especially when the misbehaviour is deeply hidden.

Ask the geniuses responsible for the cock-ups in Abu Ghraib and My Lai. Enron, MCI, Halliburton? Whatever about businesses, various religions have done plenty evil in the name of their professed deities. Give the Pope his due, don't forget the good he did and tried to do. I'm darn sure he did his best.
 
of course a guy with a pack of 3 on the bedside table isn't going to choose not to use one at the crucial moment for religious reasons. on the other hand if he is told by his priest that it is a mortal sin, he might not go out and buy them in the first place. if he is living in a catholic controlled state which bans the sale of contraceptives he may not have the choice.
 
Matthew 16 in no way condemns other Christians.

As to your extract: The early history of the Bible is a fascinating one. The Church Councils of Laodicea, Hippo, then Carthage [360 - 400ad] are the Councils of the Church which defined which books were 'inspired' and part of the Bible and which were not. Once defined it was the Church that took the lead in promulgating the texts. However, a lot happened between 400 and the year 600 referred to in your extract

Two things principally, I'll concentrate on:

Firstly, Rome in the West fell, to be replaced by a mishmash of ignorance from the barbarian wastes. The only centres of learning left in the West are twofold - Ireland and scattered Benedictine Monastaries. Ireland will have its scriptures in Irish, but let's not do Whitby for the moment. For the most part Benedictine Monastaries will preserve learning in the langauge of the Church - Latin. Very quickly, the invading Barbarians [or at least their rulers!] respect Latin as the language of learning and of prayer. There is a cultural, historical drift to seeing Latin as the language of the Church, and for understadable reasons the Bible follows this drift. This may sound like wishy-washy, but I want to combat the 'conspiracy theory message' of your extarct. There were genuine historical forces at work which were Latinising all religion at the time.

Secondly, the Church was concerned with heresy. As the foundation of Christ, with the authority to teach, to bind, to unbind, to forgive, the Church had by the end of the fifth century just recovered from the Arian heresy. In what has to be regarded historically as an over-reaction, one of the Church's adopted options to restrict the rise of heresy was to try and disempower the laity - thus the mistake of restricitng access to the scriptures. However, you can see the reason why the Church did this when you read some of the interpretations of Scripture that emanate from some latter day cults And I recall during a Death Penalty debate some years ago - all mainstream Christain faiths coming out with 'thou shalt not kill' except for one which went back to Genesis and quoted 'He who sheds man blood, by man shall his blood be shed.' The interpretation of scripture remains a problematic thing!

As for indulgences and purgatory - Purgatory is not a later invention - Read Paul in 1 Corinthians 3: 10-15. Indulgences are alater invention and though there is a degree of sound theology behind them [anopthe topic entirely] they were roundly and soundly abused by many, many a Pope. Inexcusable and an affront to the authority given to the Church by God. There were without doubt many, many bad Popes, just as there have been many good ones. Even the first one, the one chosen by Jesus, denied him three times and ran away. But that is the mystery of the Church. Christ founded it - but needs the likes of us to staff it!
 
So you say.

Religion is the first refuge of the cowardly and the insane and the last refuge of murderers and thieves.

I should also add it is the refuge of scoundrels.
 
You say "Very quickly, the invading Barbarians [or at least their rulers!] respect Latin as the language of learning and of prayer. "

...or the more cynical might say as a means of enhancing their power. It is historical fact that religion was and is one of the prime levers to manage a populace.
 
Sorry had to:-

And the lyrics:


DAD:
There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.

PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!

NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!



Ian
 
How refreshing to see healthy debate on this thread, rather than all the hand wringing reverance which we are seeing from all sections of the press/media.

Frankly the man should have been put into retirement years ago. Last week we saw pictures of him trying, and failing, to talk at his window. We also saw carefully posed pictures of him watching television. I'm horrified that such an organisation can reveal such a lack of compassion; all in the name of its own dogma.
 
The comment was most certainly not intended as a joke.

As a practising (non-conformist) Christian I have my own views about Catholic ideology and the performance of the late Pope, but they are my own views and will not be expressed on this forum.

I am disappointed by your response to my post, which was an expression of compassion for a dying man at a time of great suffering.

Steve.
 
I think Alex L has got it 100% right. It was Stalin who famously asked "how many divisions does the Pope have" and underlined the Vatican's irrelevance in the cold war.

But I dont think the Pope contributed to aids in Africa to any great extent as some have suggested. What spreads aids is promiscuous sex, a cultural issue over there. And I dont see anything wrong either with what he preached about homosexuality - a perversion in the true meaning of that word.

In truth, the world rolled on and JP didnt make much difference - certainly not as much as (say) Ronald Reagon. But to hundreds of millions of Catholics he matters and for that alone his death should be honoured. There is no need to be aggressive, offensive or even dismissive about other people's beliefs.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I have the utmost respect for what the Pope did as a young man in Poland under the Nazis. I however cannot agree that he stood up for the sancitiy of life - whose life? not the africans dying of aids, not the irish girls dying in back street abortion clinics, not the poor dying of starvation.
I also have seen first hand on some of my travels exactly how much respect the catholic church has for the poor an humble, and it aint' pretty.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your arguments are pretty flawed and somewhat sensationalist.

The majority of Africans are not using condoms not because of religious beliefs, but because of cultural beliefs, poor education and lack of availability.

There is no need for "back street abortionists" in Ireland, there is a very well established service available a short ferry trip/flight away in England with a number of organisations to facilitate it.

There are many Catholic organisations (amongst others religious and secular) working in countries in need.

The other oft quoted is paedophiles - there have been - the same as in the rest of society, but statistically a child is more likely to be a victim of a member of their own family (of any religion) than any other person.

If you have seen so much, what are you doing to make things better? The world has benefited from the Pope, you don't have to like it but I don't see why you have to rubbish him.
 
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