What was so great about the Pope?

On reflection the organised Church seems to have been wrong on just

about everying it cared to pontificate on.Why break the habits of a millenium or two.If God really exists.I shall certainly want a word with her,about settling one or two old scores. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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Why dont the god botherers answer the paedophile question. Why does the church attract so many deviants. Is this belief and paedophilia inextricably linked.

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The church attracts no more paedophiles than any other organisation that gives access to children. Look at the Scouts, Social Services and Teaching to name but a few. There is well documented research that shows paedophiles will actively seek any employment that will put them in trusted positions with access to children.

Despite all this, the majority of victims are assaulted by family members or family friends. If you have children, make sure you are aware of all the risks and are watching in the right direction.
 
Re: On reflection the organised Church seems to have been wrong on just

I like it!

The old biblical doctrine....."Revenge is sweet" /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Why on earth am I diving into this morass?
I thought Jimi was being very provocative in challenging the eulogies being pronounced on the life of the Pope. I had thought of mentioning a few of his less successful ideas and directives, but decided to take the diplomatic route and stay silent.
But, Wow. So many non-believers on this forum! I am surprised, though to be a serious church-goer would dig very deeply into weekend sailing. So maybe sailing is really for the irreligious.
Saying that, I personally think that JP11 did some very good things. He was, however, a product of his time, his early life and education. Thus, he found the more recent ideas of understanding very difficult to encompass. It seems that he found women irrelevant beyond their reproductive function, and many nuns have been very confused/upset by his ignoring the good that they have done. He was committed to the sanctity of all life, without being able to understand the greater perspective that this policy could have bad implications for global overpopulation and the spreading of aids. His absolute power over the Roman Catholic Church meant that nothing could be done about his entrenched views. To my mind, a good reason for having time-limited reigns for all those in positions of power.
I was impressed by Nickel's eloquent defence of the better features of the Papal reign, and also surprised at the general lack of religious interest of the contributors to this forum; me included. What we should hope for now is that the Cardinals choose a successor who is more in line with modern thinking and knowledge. Which, according to the Independant list of possible successors, is unlikely.

From a totally different perspective, in my psychotherapy experience, there are quite a lot of Catholics who seem to have problems over the sexual act and the 'sin' they perceive they are committing; to the extent that they have difficulty in reaching an intimate level in their relationships with partners. And to a greater extent, those with homosexual leanings can suffer tremendous guilt. Which IMHO is very wrong.

Oh well, nothing much will change; the poor will still be poor, and the rich still rich. Thats life. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
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Why dont the god botherers answer the paedophile question. Why does the church attract so many deviants. Is this belief and paedophilia inextricably linked.

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The church attracts no more paedophiles than any other organisation that gives access to children. Look at the Scouts, Social Services and Teaching to name but a few. There is well documented research that shows paedophiles will actively seek any employment that will put them in trusted positions with access to children.

Despite all this, the majority of victims are assaulted by family members or family friends. If you have children, make sure you are aware of all the risks and are watching in the right direction.

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Surely you are not saying that because there are paedophiles in other walks of life that it's OK to have them in the Church? Not much of a defence.

The point was that there have been horrific cases of paedophilia in the Church. For too long they were also covered up by the Church meaning that senior churchmen were allowing their priest to carry on with their crimes.
 
I think the the Pope is seen as being many things unjustly - the bottom line is that the Catholic faith is based on any number of non-negotiables including attitudes to homosexuality, women and the practice of many aspects of it's faith. Even the Pope cannot change these.

Unlike many other faiths it will not compromise on these principles or follow the populist line whatever the consequences. Interpretations of God's teachings have been made and they are not open to reinterpretation. It is a case of this is what it stands for and that's it.

It is quite hard to accept such strong principles in an era of populist politics and religion, where principles and beliefs are negotiated and discarded to gain support.
 
\"Look at the Scouts\"....

scouting.jpg
 
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I think the the Pope is seen as being many things unjustly - the bottom line is that the Catholic faith is based on any number of non-negotiables including attitudes to homosexuality, women and the practice of many aspects of it's faith. Even the Pope cannot change these.

Unlike many other faiths it will not compromise on these principles or follow the populist line whatever the consequences. Interpretations of God's teachings have been made and they are not open to reinterpretation. It is a case of this is what it stands for and that's it.

It is quite hard to accept such strong principles in an era of populist politics and religion, where principles and beliefs are negotiated and discarded to gain support.

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Wrong! Not even the Church still claims the world is flat. It has changed and will change again. The sooner the better.
 
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Surely you are not saying that because there are paedophiles in other walks of life that it's OK to have them in the Church? Not much of a defence.

The point was that there have been horrific cases of paedophilia in the Church. For too long they were also covered up by the Church meaning that senior churchmen were allowing their priest to carry on with their crimes.

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You're right, I am not saying that and they were covered up for too long, but at least that is now being visibly addressed. Pressure must now be put on all organisations to address their own problems. How many others can you name that are actively and publicly trying to address the same problems?

I bet if you trawled the papers for the last year there are 10 times the number of prosecutions against other professions than the clergy. What is being done to root them out from within? From many all you hear is what should they do to protect their own members from false allegations. They should be shouting for better investigations to find out how many of them are true allegations - the false ones would then fall by the wayside.
 
And in the fullness of time it might warm to stem cell research in the same way they eventually "pardoned" Galileo!
 
A good point. But I hope that you are totally wrong. Interpretation should never be absolute. As science develops knowledge and experience, ideas must change. I believe that homosexual people are born that way, nature rather than nuture. So, in religious terms, God would have made them the way they are; why should the Church reject them on the basis of 2000 year old concepts?

Then again, much is made of the paedophile activities of priests. Yet, if you look at the way the Chuch recruits its priesthood; these men were taken into celibacy very young; before they had a chance to know anything about life or any other future. Then when they realised that such activities were overlooked, or indulged in, by their seniors, they fell into the same trap. It is the absolute inability of the older members of the Church to understand the concept of paedophilia that has allowed it to flourish.
I had two associates who were Irish Catholics when I was in practice, and they both admitted to being terrified of the Brothers who taught them at school. I suggest that paedophilia was only the extreme outcome of a regime of severe discipline and abuse by these Brothers who probably started being this way because they believed it was good for the pupils, and had no other parameters to judge their behaviour against. The nuns were no better.
Education in Ireland was very good at the time (the value of discipline?); I wonder how would it have compared with the English public schools?
 
Just a comment

Organised Religion
By which means a self choosen few parlayed our fear of disaster in this life and the next into wealth and power for themselves..Independant Newspaper. 04/04/2005.
 
Interpretation can be absolute when you are talking faith/belief as opposed to science. As for Catholic education, I was taught by De La Salle brothers in England and I have family members taught by Christian Brothers and Nuns in Ireland... I can give you examples of good and bad - bit like real life really. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Anybody who gets to the head of a group of one billion people must have something going for him. Somebody who could converse in 9 languages demands a certain respect.

What did he achieve? IMO his greatest achievement was that he set in route the bridging of the divide between the religions by initiating contacts with Jews, Muslims, the Greek Orthodox Church (who rebuffed him) and by clearing up many of the ills put at the charge of the church in the past - thus facilitating a dialogue which previously was impossible. In this age of polarisation, especially in the middle east, such contacts are a great initiative.

What of the criticisms here which relate mainly as far as I can see to the spread of aids? I do not agree with him on a practical basis but he has remained consistent with Catholic Church teachings. All mainstream religions believe that the church should maintain an absolute and consistent standard and should not bow to current fashions in morality. I disagree with the Catholics where they allow no protection against illness based on the dogma of contraception. I am sure if Christ were on Earth today, he would take a more compassionnate and pragmatic view, much in the same way that he ground corn on the Sabbath.

It is easy to pick holes in somebody if you really try and it seems to a full-time activity these days - look how many people enjoyed trashing Ellen's performance. The great illusion these days however is to believe that anyone, politician or churchman can bring about an overnight change.

As an Ulster Prod my upbringing and background were to consider the Pope as the Anti-Christ ( rf: the Westminster Confession of Faith). I consider him however to have been a great man and the world is a better place for the overtures which he initiated and which will probably need many generations of Popes to bring to fruition.

John
 
My youngest son was taught by the DeLa Salle brothers, St Johns Grammar school, Portsmouth. Was that the same for you? They were very good, if somewhat against their basic creed of helping the under priviledged. My son's school was private. So at least they moved with the times. But your other points, I agree in principle. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
The world changes and becomes materialistic and our culture becomes celebrity mad, creating in the process the cults of ego, self and now.

How does the Church respond? By adapting to materialism and selfishness, or by standing up and saying in a discordant manner 'Our culture is going in the wrong direction.' ?

Homosexuality is too big a topic for a forum on boating, but as for paedophile priests, l'escargot has said it all. Unfortunately, paedophiles will seek out professions where they have trusted access to the young. Where the Church has failed is just the same as where society has failed - for too long we have all simply hushed this question up and brushed it under the carpet as something too ugly to look at. How many organisations in the 1960s were seriously dealing with abuse?The Church is more culpable than other organisations because she should have known better. However, I don't think for one moment that paedophilia was the extreme outcome of discpline. Discipline and paedophilia are two different things. And in my experience the Church's selection process, and the question of celibacy are not connected in any way with paedophilia.

One question - not pejorative in any way - just interested in your view - if you think homosexuals are born that way - do you think the same of paedophiles?
 
<< and condemning other christians really ...>>

You need to remember that the great majority of Protestants are descended from Roman Catholics and chose for one reason or another to break away. Henry VIII, before becoming head of the reformed church was created Defender of the Faith by the Pope for his writings in defense of catholicism against the heretical protestants. There are many paradoxes in religious history : how many Irish catholics for example would believe that the English entered Ireland on the specific invitation of an Irish King and with the express permission of the Pope? (Papal bull of Laudabiliter 1155).

The Martin Luther reformation's main point concerned the sale of indulgences but there were many other money spinners for the church. For example marriage did not become a sacremant in the Catholic church until the second half of the 12th century. At that time if King's were not producing heirs they usually wanted to divorce and try again. Once marriage had become a sacremant ,only the Pope could grant an annulment. One of the motives was on the grounds of consanguinity: if the royal was related to his wife up to the 7th degree he could demand an annulment. However to get it, the Pope normally insisted that the state become a vassal state of Rome and would contribute to its finances; whereupon the King would be confirmed in his position.

Similarly Purgatory was a 12th century creation. The principle and process of purgation went back much further but the notion of Purgatory as being a place led to the sale of many mass cards for the defunct's soul.

However another era; another moral standard. One of England's greatest heros Richard the Lionheart was a rapist, a paedophile (even by 12th century standards) a homosexual, and he massacred 3000 hostages in a fit of pique in Palestine.

John
 
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Wrong! Not even the Church still claims the world is flat. It has changed and will change again. The sooner the better.

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Long time since I read many parts of it, but I don't recall any mention in the bible of the shape of the earth - perhaps you could give me a refence? If it's going to change again, what shape will the world be next? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Most major christian religions still believe in Adam & Eve and that God made the world - Darwin disagrees - but it doesn't stop christians believing the Bible as a foundation of their faith.

There you go faith as opposed to science again - gets pretty deep doesn't it?
 
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