jimi
Well-known member
Must admit I've obviously missed abit over the last 26 yrs but what did he actually achieve for the greater good? As far as I can see hi s main achievement was to last considerably longer than his predecessor
What was so great about the Pope?
- Thread starter jimi
- Start date
wishbones
New member
Agree totally. By his attitudes to AIDS prevention, women's rights and homosexual equality this man helped shorten the lives of millions, and make the lives of millions more a misery. Not very "christian" in my (atheist) view!
Das_Boot
New member
'''''I am not a Catholic, but I do pray that God will bless him and ease his passing. ''''
Sturgeonsteve posted the above on a different thread. I thought using toilett humor at a time like this is a bit offensive.
Sturgeonsteve posted the above on a different thread. I thought using toilett humor at a time like this is a bit offensive.
mikebees
New member
At least he didn't jam up our forum with irrelevant and usually incomprehensible comments.
DJE
Well-known member
Kissed a lot of tarmac. NM
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jimi
Well-known member
Think I'd rather stand at judgement day answering for a bit of harmless nonsense than the charge of being in a position to being able to beneficially affect the lives of millions not doing so and covering up for paedophile priests ... amongst other things ..
Das_Boot
New member
I dont believe he meant it as a joke I just thought the his use of words was a bit unfortunite (refering to my post)
As for Mikebees I missed the part when you gained ownership of this forum, remind me again.
I thought your ability to comprehend was your responsibility maybe owning this forum is too much of a task for you.
As for Mikebees I missed the part when you gained ownership of this forum, remind me again.
I thought your ability to comprehend was your responsibility maybe owning this forum is too much of a task for you.
Nickel
Member
He was a man who solidly and tirelessly stood up for what was right - will we be able to say the same at the end?
His contribution to the collapse of communism has been much commented upon - possibly over-commented upon - without a doubt he was a massive catalyst to the overthrow of communism in Poland, which in itself was the trigger for the further collapses elsewhere. I remember visiting the Church of the Ark in Nowa Huta in 1984, built and finished just a few years earlier during the time the Pope held the office of Archbishop of Krakow. It stood then, and stands no doubt still, as a fantastic testament to the power of faith and hope.
And as Pope he stood up for the voiceless and the powerless - his was a constant voice calling the world to listen to the Gospel message of peace, respect for life, and love for one another. The fact that we so often don't listen is hardly his fault.
His lasting legacy, I think, is that he has started the absolute renewal of the office of papacy - a process which will, in time, heal the divisions within Christianity, and lead to a dialogue of respect and understanding with other faiths. When he took office he contacted the leaders of other denominations and other faiths and asked them - what can I do to make life easier for you? This was truly revolutionary.
He said to the Metropolitan of Constantinople [Most Senior Bishop of the Greek Orthodox Church] after a very productive discussion - 'Remember, I am Peter.' Now, he has gone to join Peter at table with Our Lord, and I think he can probably say, 'I did my best.'
He was a good servant to the servants of the people of God.
His contribution to the collapse of communism has been much commented upon - possibly over-commented upon - without a doubt he was a massive catalyst to the overthrow of communism in Poland, which in itself was the trigger for the further collapses elsewhere. I remember visiting the Church of the Ark in Nowa Huta in 1984, built and finished just a few years earlier during the time the Pope held the office of Archbishop of Krakow. It stood then, and stands no doubt still, as a fantastic testament to the power of faith and hope.
And as Pope he stood up for the voiceless and the powerless - his was a constant voice calling the world to listen to the Gospel message of peace, respect for life, and love for one another. The fact that we so often don't listen is hardly his fault.
His lasting legacy, I think, is that he has started the absolute renewal of the office of papacy - a process which will, in time, heal the divisions within Christianity, and lead to a dialogue of respect and understanding with other faiths. When he took office he contacted the leaders of other denominations and other faiths and asked them - what can I do to make life easier for you? This was truly revolutionary.
He said to the Metropolitan of Constantinople [Most Senior Bishop of the Greek Orthodox Church] after a very productive discussion - 'Remember, I am Peter.' Now, he has gone to join Peter at table with Our Lord, and I think he can probably say, 'I did my best.'
He was a good servant to the servants of the people of God.
AlexL
Member
I quite agree - everyone (everyone Catholic that is) seems to assume that as he is 'The pope' he must by definition be good. The BBC for some strange reason (I assume one of the govenors is a bible basher) seems to have also taken a fawning obsequious viewpoint that is almost cringworthy to watch.
If one takes a step back from the assumptions and look at what the pope has 'achieved'.
He has ensured that the african AIDS 'problem' has now become an epidemic (at least its of biblical proportions though) which is killing 10's if not 100's of millions of people. I listened to a Catholic Cardinal on the BBC not long ago saying that it was gods judgment and these people were being punished for being sinful !! nice chap, even Hitler wasn't that cold about human sufferening.
He has refused to regognise Womens and Gay rights, and I still cannot work out why the Catholic church appears to be the only body in europe which is exempt from the employment and equality laws - its about time they were bought to book.
He has covered up for peodophiles in many countries.
He has run an organization that operates in some of the poorest countries on earth, and yet despite the Vatican being discusting wealthy, still encourages these people to give what little money they do have to the church. I have seen a small part of latin america and the way the churches extort money from these incredibly poor people is sickening.
Any other things to add to his eptiaph?
I may not be the pope, but I can go to my grave knowing that I haven't killed 50 million africans either.
If one takes a step back from the assumptions and look at what the pope has 'achieved'.
He has ensured that the african AIDS 'problem' has now become an epidemic (at least its of biblical proportions though) which is killing 10's if not 100's of millions of people. I listened to a Catholic Cardinal on the BBC not long ago saying that it was gods judgment and these people were being punished for being sinful !! nice chap, even Hitler wasn't that cold about human sufferening.
He has refused to regognise Womens and Gay rights, and I still cannot work out why the Catholic church appears to be the only body in europe which is exempt from the employment and equality laws - its about time they were bought to book.
He has covered up for peodophiles in many countries.
He has run an organization that operates in some of the poorest countries on earth, and yet despite the Vatican being discusting wealthy, still encourages these people to give what little money they do have to the church. I have seen a small part of latin america and the way the churches extort money from these incredibly poor people is sickening.
Any other things to add to his eptiaph?
I may not be the pope, but I can go to my grave knowing that I haven't killed 50 million africans either.
Das_Boot
New member
I hear he had a 5 star hotel built for his cardinals when they are choosing his successor. Money better spent by the saintly on the poor I should think.
He was waited on hand and foot held on grimly for months, those doctors could have saved the lives of the poor. The money spent keeping him alive would have fed thousands without recourse to miracles.
Hardly the behaviour of a saint or someone who even gave a damn for the poor.
He was waited on hand and foot held on grimly for months, those doctors could have saved the lives of the poor. The money spent keeping him alive would have fed thousands without recourse to miracles.
Hardly the behaviour of a saint or someone who even gave a damn for the poor.
milltech
Active member
All the above is true, and I follow the Dave Allen view, ("I don't believe, Thank God").
The real truth is that all people who wield great power lose something in the process and find "the devil's alternative" round every corner. I suspect no Pope can ever be "good" and the effect is enhanced because, unlike others who wield power, the Pope is actually expected to be.
All religions are manufactured and so more or less deserve to be ignored, whether there is a God or not I don't know, but I'm sure that if there is one the accident of berth that lined you up to be Catholic, Jew, Muslim etc. will not matter a jot to him, (or her - sorry).
However, my advice to TV and Radio is certainly - TOO MUCH POPE, thank you.
The real truth is that all people who wield great power lose something in the process and find "the devil's alternative" round every corner. I suspect no Pope can ever be "good" and the effect is enhanced because, unlike others who wield power, the Pope is actually expected to be.
All religions are manufactured and so more or less deserve to be ignored, whether there is a God or not I don't know, but I'm sure that if there is one the accident of berth that lined you up to be Catholic, Jew, Muslim etc. will not matter a jot to him, (or her - sorry).
However, my advice to TV and Radio is certainly - TOO MUCH POPE, thank you.
snowleopard
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
He was a man who solidly and tirelessly stood up for what was right
[/ QUOTE ]
i think that would be better expressed as ...what he thought was right...
he virtually singlehandedly reversed the previous progress of the catholic church towards a sane approach on population control. while largely ignored in the west (spain has the lowest birth rate in europe, followed closely by italy) the dogma is still followed slavishly in the third world and is the second biggest cause of poverty and starvation in the world today.
no. he had some good points but i believe he has left the world worse off than he found it. he certainly assited the end of the soviet empire but the main credit for that has to go to gorbachev.
He was a man who solidly and tirelessly stood up for what was right
[/ QUOTE ]
i think that would be better expressed as ...what he thought was right...
he virtually singlehandedly reversed the previous progress of the catholic church towards a sane approach on population control. while largely ignored in the west (spain has the lowest birth rate in europe, followed closely by italy) the dogma is still followed slavishly in the third world and is the second biggest cause of poverty and starvation in the world today.
no. he had some good points but i believe he has left the world worse off than he found it. he certainly assited the end of the soviet empire but the main credit for that has to go to gorbachev.
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
We live in a horribly PC age and the Beeb and, indeed, the rest of the media (did anyone see the number of fawning column inches in the Sunday Times?) fall over themselves not to give offence to anyone by not appearing to give them their due respect. I'm afraid it's a symptom of this dreadful multiculturism which infects this country.
As it happens, whilst he did help support the fall of communism in Poland, I believe he did little else to help the common good of humanity. I believe the hope is that a more radical Pope can be appointed who can at least address the issues others have referred to
As it happens, whilst he did help support the fall of communism in Poland, I believe he did little else to help the common good of humanity. I believe the hope is that a more radical Pope can be appointed who can at least address the issues others have referred to
AlexL
Member
I fail to see how aggressively and actively campaiging against the use of condoms, thus ensuring the deaths of millions of people, versus changing the vaticans stance is a 'Devils Alternative' decision? Its a simple decision, which is obvious to anybody with 1/2 an ounce of decency in them.
I can see how the female preiest thing is a 'devils alternative' as whichever decision is made roughly the same number of people will probably be pi**ed off (however the Law is very clear on this point!). But there is a big difference between that and the Aids thing.
"With absolute power, comes absolute responsibility" someone once said. The pope had the power and the ability to issue advice and decrees to mitigate the human tradegy that is the Aids epediemic. He conciously chose not to do that. I hope he has to look into the eyes of every one of the 10's of millions of people that his inactions have killed, on the long road to the pearly gates.
I can see how the female preiest thing is a 'devils alternative' as whichever decision is made roughly the same number of people will probably be pi**ed off (however the Law is very clear on this point!). But there is a big difference between that and the Aids thing.
"With absolute power, comes absolute responsibility" someone once said. The pope had the power and the ability to issue advice and decrees to mitigate the human tradegy that is the Aids epediemic. He conciously chose not to do that. I hope he has to look into the eyes of every one of the 10's of millions of people that his inactions have killed, on the long road to the pearly gates.
Das_Boot
New member
Dont say Gorbachov he had the mark of the devil on his face. I remember all the godbotherers going on about him beeing the antichrist. The end of the world was nigh.
Religion is the first refuge of the cowardly and the insane and the last refuge of murderers and thieves.
Religion is the first refuge of the cowardly and the insane and the last refuge of murderers and thieves.
milltech
Active member
Hey I'm not disagreeing with you, I was making a general point that you can't run an organisation like that and be pious.
milltech
Active member
v. good
milltech
Active member
Re: Reaching out to other faiths
I don't understand this reaching out to other faiths, why?
Either "your faith", (whichever it is), is the true faith and all others are damned, or all faiths are equally bogus. (Let's not bring God into this).
I don't see the point unless of course one sees religions as businesses looking for subscribers, (surely the anti contraceptive case), in which case some territorial discussion is probably valuable.
I don't understand this reaching out to other faiths, why?
Either "your faith", (whichever it is), is the true faith and all others are damned, or all faiths are equally bogus. (Let's not bring God into this).
I don't see the point unless of course one sees religions as businesses looking for subscribers, (surely the anti contraceptive case), in which case some territorial discussion is probably valuable.
AlexL
Member
[ QUOTE ]
ll the above is true, and I follow the Dave Allen view, ("I don't believe, Thank God").
[/ QUOTE ]
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I'm not quite sure whether I believe in 'a' god or not, however as I have the ability to think for myself and not slavishly follow the rantings of any organisation, I can separate the idea of god, and the church. I definately do not beleive in , or agree with the church, any church, but especially the catholic church. I do believe that one can have this stance and still be open minded about the existance of a god, even if you are engineer / scientist type person, such as myself.
ll the above is true, and I follow the Dave Allen view, ("I don't believe, Thank God").
[/ QUOTE ]
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I'm not quite sure whether I believe in 'a' god or not, however as I have the ability to think for myself and not slavishly follow the rantings of any organisation, I can separate the idea of god, and the church. I definately do not beleive in , or agree with the church, any church, but especially the catholic church. I do believe that one can have this stance and still be open minded about the existance of a god, even if you are engineer / scientist type person, such as myself.
Das_Boot
New member
Miltech I think our post crossed in the post. I agree Gorbachov and not the pope or Ronald Reagan had more to do with the downfall of comunism. The pope just rode the bandwagon as usual.