What is the weight of a Jaguar 25 swing keel? I need a new winch...

[mikeywil]

The inner drum on the keel winch on my Jaguar 25 swing keel has rusted and crumbled away. Looking to fix or replace the winch unit, and it needs to be beefy enough to handle the keel - but I have no idea how heavy the keel is - anyone know?

I have searched all the usual places. I did look at Catalina Direct to see what type they supply as a replacement. This looks to me like a Fulton 'braked winch' - you can just make out the word Fulton stamped on the side in the pic. What I can't see is what the actual model is, but if it's the 'K1550' model then that's about £210 for a replacement from a UK stockist. My local engineering workshop reckons they could fix the existing winch, but not for five or six weeks, and that's too long to wait given the time of year.

Any advice welcome!

 

[Bobc]

No more than a ton, that's for sure.

 

[northwind]

If you are fitting a new winch, look at a braked one, that way if you let the handle go it will stop with no drama..
Tiger BHW Brake Hand Winch

 

[mikeywil]

If you are fitting a new winch, look at a braked one, that way if you let the handle go it will stop with no drama..
Tiger BHW Brake Hand Winch

Yes - it definitely needs that! There's no lock mechanism so when you wind up the keel to horizontal, the winch needs to hold it there reliably.

 

[northwind]

Yes - it definitely needs that! There's no lock mechanism so when you wind up the keel to horizontal, the winch needs to hold it there reliably.

The one I linked it is what I swapped my keel winch over to (different boat to you). Its design means you can let go of the handle and it stops where it is, simply wind or unwind, there is no freewheel!

 

[mikeywil]

The one I linked it is what I swapped my keel winch over to (different boat to you). Its design means you can let go of the handle and it stops where it is, simply wind or unwind, there is no freewheel!

That's the behaviour of the current (now broken) winch. Can I ask what size boat/keel?

 

[northwind]

That's the behaviour of the current (now broken) winch. Can I ask what size boat/keel?

18ft, 180kg drop keel

 

[ChromeDome]

While at it also check two speed winches (handle fits a gear shaft and the drum shaft = 2 ratios)

 

[mikeywil]

Thanks @ChromeDome - appreciate the thought. The winch sits right under the companion way in such a way that access to any part except the handle will be rather awkward. I don't know what the gearing on the current one is, but 30 turns of the handle gets the keel up or down and is reasonably manageable, so I'm thinking of keeping it as simple as possible.

 

[neil_s]

You're lucky - the lifting keel on my Seal 28 needs 150 turns!! It weighs about 1000 lbs.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

You're lucky - the lifting keel on my Seal 28 needs 150 turns!! It weighs about 1000 lbs.

That's the equivalent of about 17 x 26 kilo outboards. As we are making comparisons my lifting keel is equivalent of 21x 26 kilo outboards. About 90 hefty manual pumps on a hydraulic pump. Keel is 16 inches up and 5ft 5" down.I claim the prize for heaviest manual keel.

 

[William_H]

I imagine that the keel would be lifted from a point half way down the trailing edge so load on winch wire would be nearly that of total weight of keel. So I guess around 400kg possibly more. Look for boat data. ol'will

 

[simonfraser]

depends if you are winding it up whilst the keel is in the water or on land, gonna be easier when submerged

 

[mikeywil]

Here’s a couple of pictures of the keel arrangement, and some pics of the old winch with crumbled inner drum (the wire is far to tightly wound round the axel of the winch).

Whilst looking for these I also found a pic of the winch plate before being painted with the model number of the old winch - A Fulton 945 from Milwaukee. Adding here for posterity (and in case it helps some other Jaguar owner in the future).

 

[mikeywil]

Following a thread or two on the internet... here's some history of winches (from a Google cached PDF of a company called Genie that used them in radio towers)

• The Fulton 945 was used (by Genie) between 1976 and 1979.
• The Fulton K1500 was used (by Genie) between 1979 and 1982. The K1500 followed the 945. Early production was painted gloss black and in 1981, Fulton began zinc plating the K1500. Distinctions from the 945 model include a two-piece pinion shaft incorporating a threaded brake nut. A second brake face and ratchet pawl were also added.
• The Fulton KX1550 was used (by Genie) between November 1982 and October 1988. The KX1550 followed the K1500 “Genie Modified”. It came from Fulton ready to use and included a redesigned pinion shaft assembly. The Teflon spacer was made tougher so it resisted compression better.

So, the K1550 that I mentioned in the first message in this thread is the logical Fulton one to get. The difference between the K1550 and the KX1550 is that the KX series has "plated gear cover for protection and a dual ratchet system for added security".

The Tiger (recommended by @northwind) equivalent size is BHW-1800 and seems to be about half the price at ~£100. So I'm going to check the position of the mounting bolt holes and go with that one if possible.

 

[Neeves]

A 30 second Google search pulled up this data.

Jaguar Yacht Owners - Jaguar 25 Yacht

I'm sure more motivated search would secure more information.

I might have thought this might be another application for some dyneema, but I might mention I know nothing, at all, about ballast and lifting keels.

Jonathan

 

[mikeywil]

A 30 second Google search pulled up this data.

Jaguar Yacht Owners - Jaguar 25 Yacht

I'm sure more motivated search would secure more information.

I might have thought this might be another application for some dyneema, but I might mention I know nothing, at all, about ballast and lifting keels.

Jonathan

Yeah I did do the basic searches - might have taken less than 30 seconds! However, that page has a keel weight for sure - but there's three keel options, and no indication as to what the swing keel weight is - but I was guessing it'll be quite different from the fixed versions.

Dyneema is a very interesting idea... I wonder if it offers benefits in terms of potential rubbing issues that the steel wire can have when it goes round the bronze pulley?

 

[ChromeDome]

The smaller drum diameter you have the more, but easier, turns are needed.

So your old rusted-away drum helps you in that regard

 

[Snowgoose-1]

Yeah I did do the basic searches - might have taken less than 30 seconds! However, that page has a keel weight for sure - but there's three keel options, and no indication as to what the swing keel weight is - but I was guessing it'll be quite different from the fixed versions.

Dyneema is a very interesting idea... I wonder if it offers benefits in terms of potential rubbing issues that the steel wire can have when it goes round the bronze pulley?

Agreed.
The stats published for keel/ballast weight is not always a clear picture. You often have a swing keel weighing far less than the keel box/ballast that it's housed in . Some boats have what can be termed a full drop keel and that is nearly all the published ballast weight. I have owned three boats with adjustable draft and all have been different .

 

[Neeves]

Agreed.
The stats published for keel/ballast weight is not always a clear picture. You often have a swing keel weighing far less than the keel box/ballast that it's housed in . Some boats have what can be termed a full drop keel and that is nearly all the published ballast weight. I have owned three boats with adjustable draft and all have been different .

In the reality you have an approximate idea of the weight of the keel and surely that is enough to allow you to spec the device to lift and lower the keel, being over-specified is not going to change the device nor your ability to use it.

The winch you seem to be considering does not appear to be very different to similar (identical?) devices I see on MoBo trailer launching and retrieval systems (which come in sizes, or specs from small to quite big, bigger than you are considering).

Jonathan