What if we were forced back to the dark ages?

grumpy_o_g said:
Rabbits would be a prime source of protein as they can be trapped. Hunting isn't anything like as easy as it seems when you're trying to catch your dinner. Fishing would also be popular and the fish stocks would recover fairly quickly in some areas I'd have thought, given no bottom trawling, etc.
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Perhaps there are plenty of rabbits in the UK but there are few, if any, in continental Europe.

A lifetime or two ago I too had to attend survival courses in the RAF, postulating an unintentional arrival in a wild and barren area due to aircraft malfunction or hostile action. One thing that still sticks in my mind was the instructor's injunction of: "if it moves, eat it." Creepy-crawlies or whatever, the risk of losing energy and the survival instinct was higher than the chance of something bad ingested with potential protein.
 
As a nation we would not survive if the mushroom goes up.
Before retiring I was privy go who goes into the huge bunker when the bomb drops.
Are they farmers, engineers, doctors, chemists etc., human building blocks of a civilisation??
No in fact it will be full of head of councils civil servants and leading civillians working in high administrative office jobs.


The end is nigh
 
skipper_stu said:
We are a self sufficient lot. Part of the allure of boating I suspect is the ability to make ourselves a self contained world. Now, just suppose that Armegeddon happened, life as we know it has come to an end, no electricity etc etc. For the first few years we live on "stuff" left behind. BUT what happens when eventually all the working bits are gone and we have to start again.
I was talking to a customer the other day about it, I know how to smelt iron and copper, we can even get the ore from Brymbo and Anglesey but once we have the raw metal, how do we make things? Who made the first lathe? but from that how did they make the first lathe without a lathe to make the bits?
I could make a crude genny but where would the bearings come from? Or the shaft to wind the copper wire on, indeed, who would make the wire?
And all that just for a bit of power!
Discuss!
Stu
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Toolmakers & people like me made those first laths & all the basic materials so clearly I would be in great demand if your scenario took place.
What would probably concern me would be making the first file because without that whittling away at metal would be a very hard job.
(Files are amazing pieces of equipment when you look at them:cool:
But then so are wimen & I know where my priority's would lie;):)
 
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robertj said:
As a nation we would not survive if the mushroom goes up.
Before retiring I was privy go who goes into the huge bunker when the bomb drops.
Are they farmers, engineers, doctors, chemists etc., human building blocks of a civilisation??
No in fact it will be full of head of councils civil servants and leading civillians working in high administrative office jobs.


The end is nigh
Click to expand...

I was in a similar position - IIRC the Easingwold view on things was that very rapidly the population would fall to ca. 10% of the current level in about 1-2 years.

Essentially, we are just a couple of meals away from barbarianism as another poster said. Rather worryingly we don't have the massive stocks stored that we once had - local supermarkets only have a couple of days in stock and their distribution depots are just that distribution! The warehouse is essentially the truck on the road!

Just in time systems put everything even more on a knife edge - forget a nuclear winter just think fuel strike and a population who can't cook!
 
Jules Verne's "Mysterious Island" postulates a situation where a reasonably savvy bunch of castaways managed to build up limited technological (19th C) capability. Sadly, it relies on the island having a completely implausible geology! But the techniques would work, given enough time.

As others have said, machinery is "Think Big" - that way you can minimize losses that are inevitable with crude manufacturing processes. Water power is probably the way to go for prime-movers in the first instance. Look at the machinery in old windmills and watermills - it is enormous for the power levels involved. Remember that a water mill with a modest water level difference is probably generating horesepower comparable to the engine in a lot of yachts.

Someone asked about lathes - you start with a pole-lathe, with bearings made from pointy bits of wood in shallow holes in a plank.

I can recognize ores and know the basic metallurgy involved in smelting common metals - it is A-level chemistry, so not such a rare skill. Mineral recognition is a bit more involved - but I have a degree in geology! However, if it is metallic looking or brightly coloured and heavy, it is probably an ore of some kind, and reduction with charcoal may well work.

None of this is any help if you are in a part of the world with no naturally occurring useful minerals - like most of the world. Ores that are rich enough for metal production using primitive techniques are rare, and are confined to certain geological settings.

I can't create stone tools, and I doubt if there are very many people who can.

I think I could make rope if I had to - but a copy of Ashley's Book of Knots would be a vital resource! I understand that nettles are a useful source of fibre.

Weaponry - I can handle a bow if necessary! And that is a rare skill; archery is harder than it looks. Heavier stuff - think mediaeval. You can do a lot with twisted ropes and long levers!
 
We used to camp and hunt as kids, which was a laugh at the time and horrifies my daughter now.....the thought of killing bunnies for tea doesn't sit well with her at all. But we were excellent scavengers on the times when we didn't catch a rabbit or two - head for the beach at low tide and you can rustle up a cracking meal with little effort. The single biggest challenge every time was fire. Once you had one going though (and tended it well as your first, second and third priority) then the rest was fairly simple. Hunting didn't require weapons, nets and traps work just as well and are far more productive until your aim is up to scratch. As someone said, archery using basic hand-made gear is damned difficult.

We used to try making basic tools, but were never really that successful. Often it was easier to start with bones rather than stones, which obviously meant finding large enough bones to begin with, and catching anything of substantial size always managed to evade us.....
 
My first lathe, was a treadle driven early 20th century Raglan. I could not take a big cut without stalling or belt slip, but I learnt to machine on it. I began turning at college as an extra curricula. I left school and went on the steelworks training as a met technician. Part of that training, sent me to places like Abbeydale forge. I figure, I could devise a cupola for melting scrap and reducing rust. What makes anyone think that we would be mining ores, we would be mining the previous civilisation. My dad was a butcher and slaughterer and by the age of ten, I could bone out a side of bacon, produce sausages and joint a carcase. Jobs in my youth included beating for the big shoots and I was in demand to processing the bag. I got involved with a man known as "Donny the Poacher", so I am aufait with stalking and trapping animals. Fishing for pheasants, trapping eels and of course Crayfish.
The biggest sport in the UK is fishing and carp and trout ponds abound, pike is also edible, as are the majority of the rest of fresh water fish.
In my youth I played with steam engines, and I know where there are several that I could utilise. I could "mine" the caverns for LPG for energy. Even things like small gas power generating stations would be reasonably easy to get going again. It is as has been said that there are so many people in the world who are so "civilised", that they can't live outside of civilisation.
 
The problem Bobobolinsky is not that of people with abilities, it will be the masses who are fighting to survive that are likely to kill many to survive.

I reckon an event that removed our way of life and caused mass survival instincts to run amok to the general detriment of survival, would be over very quickly. Loads dead pretty quick, say three months, the remainder wondering if its safe to go out.

Later, say 6 to 9 months, the vigilantes who have survived by stockpiling and brutal protectionism will start to look around. Best not to draw attention to yourself as the rumoured man who has electricity. I reckon a return to subsistence farming, hunting and gathering would be the order of the day within 2 years.

Later still, the Subsisters would wage war on the Tecnos as spawn of Kamron son of Psilops harbinger of vileness and desolation. Never learn. I wonder who the Subsisters will worpship; John Seymour?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Seymour_(author)
http://www.self-sufficiency.net/
http://www.self-sufficiency.net/Greed.htm
 
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BrendanS said:
That would be my first line of doing things, but if you lose the ability to do the more advanced engineering in the first generation, my guess is you wouldn't get it back for many many generations.
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And that was one of my thoughts, us cranky old Bs have still got the skills, BUT what about the next generation, I mean to say, they are lost without that mind numbing Facebook let alone the basics!
Vyv Cox posted a good link on the other forum about Dave Gingery, theres a man who would be good to know in this scenario.
Amlwch is the place for copper ore, see here http://www.anglesey.info/Amlwch.htm watched a man on TV with a clay crucible, some charcoal, a homemade bellows (leather and wood, oh sh it, how do you tan leather?) some copper ore etc, looked fairly easy.
Stu
 
skipper_stu said:
We are a self sufficient lot. Part of the allure of boating I suspect is the ability to make ourselves a self contained world. Now, just suppose that Armegeddon happened, life as we know it has come to an end, no electricity etc etc. For the first few years we live on "stuff" left behind. BUT what happens when eventually all the working bits are gone and we have to start again.
I was talking to a customer the other day about it, I know how to smelt iron and copper, we can even get the ore from Brymbo and Anglesey but once we have the raw metal, how do we make things? Who made the first lathe? but from that how did they make the first lathe without a lathe to make the bits?
I could make a crude genny but where would the bearings come from? Or the shaft to wind the copper wire on, indeed, who would make the wire?
And all that just for a bit of power!
Discuss!
Stu
Click to expand...

Buy all new stuff on ebay.
 
Pulled out some old photos today. One (1947) was of brother and self in scout uniform, showing King's Scout badge. One of the requirements, IIRC, was to catch, kill, skin, cook and eat a rabbit. Would probably be illegal today!
 
I would expect to have to leave the city quite quickly if it came to that, within a week i would say that rioting and anarchy would be very quick in coming, i personally leave the city and get out into the country with the family asap, as there is more hope in surviving out there, fresh water and food, live animals etc. that is of course if there had been no nuclear war or fallout, if that was the case then it would have to be done underground, then the city would be a better bet.

Ok fire lighting and cooking would be no problem, but adjusting to the change of food supply as in having to kill, butcher and eat, would only take a couple of days to change your current outlook from supermarket type to having to kill and butcher your own, you would be amazed how little time it takes to change your outlook towards survival, and also distrust in other groups which are not in your family/survival group.

The current younger generation would have problems with actually cooking and self survival, with i would say more towards gang culture to stay safe, with lots of looting and shootings almost imminent from the moment of a crisis, most drug gangs would end up controlling a large area with a sort of food protection, and the armed forces imposing a curfew.

I would say that the communities up in scottish highlands would have a greater way of combating the problems of survival a lot better than the cities and the south, as we would just generally starve to death first.

Just hope i can remember all my survival tips and hints and better go looking for the survival kit i had. and i'll look at the grandkids pet rabbit diferently from now on.

What a discussion for the weekend, we'll all be renting out bladerunner and all the apocalypse movies for tips...
 
If you are in the north west around cheshire and haven't a clue what to do for the weekend, this nuclear bunker is a good day out for the cold war bunch, the cinema shows some film of what would happen if the uk got hit by a nuke, not for young children but i am sure from 15 onwards would be quite taken aback.

if ex military then the observer corps and a lot of sigint stuff, with loads of comms gear if your a comms guy. Some soviet stuff is also on show.

http://www.hackgreen.co.uk/
 
Excellent thread for the weekend.

I reckon that we would be able to cope as we live in SW Scotland, and I have a pretty good selection of tools, asmall boat, etc., (and a shotgun!)... and we still have real fires and a wood burning Rayburn. Unfortunately I agree that in the immediate aftermath the major concern would be protecting your family and property from those who were incapable of feeding themselves.

But my major concern would be hoping that Aramageddon happens during the 3 weeks out of 9 that I'm home, because it would be a blooming long hike from Saudi Arabia!
 
I think I might just be OK!

Well… I can:
Forge-weld (just need to build the forge), build a field oven (from rubbish/scrap), hunt, kill and process small game (so I suppose I can scale that one up a little), sew, knit (and probably spin etc), build a shelter, make wine/beer (very important) and work with green wood.
So all I need to do is brush-up on edible plants & fungi & I’m OK, but I would much prefer to stock up from our local supermarket & go sailing. :D
 
there are many of us on there with complimentary and overlapping skills, though I suspect the real issue would be who thought they were running the show, and stopping the aggressive big buggers that had no such skills, coming in and trying to take over, probably armed. That would mean having a military capacity of our own. MajorC - care to take on this role?
 
I probably have something like 35 years left on this planet, if I'm lucky. If the population of this country fell dramatically to something like 10 million, I really don't think I'd have to worry about being able to make tools - there would be enough to last for my lifetime. Similarly, there would be more than enough shelter available, in one way or another, for my lifetime.

The things of immediate concern would be water, food and personal security. In survival mode I would be prepared to kill others in any way necessary in order to protect myself and those I love. Obviously I hope I am never faced with having to do that but it is something I have given thought to in case a survival situation ever occurred. Being anti-violence, anti-guns, anti-knives, etc, this makes for uncomfortable thoughts and I'm under no illusion that this already puts me at a disadvantage compared to the thug element of society or a trained-to-kill solder, for example. Nevertheless, I have enough wherewithal to help ensure I don't become a victim and I'm not seen as easy prey.

I usually have enough food at my disposal for approximately two months. Enough drinking water for a similar amount of time is stored in 20 litre containers in my garage and is changed regularly. I also have the equivalent of two tanks full of diesel (in 20 litre containers) to enable me to travel over 1,000 miles if necessary.

Within two hours at most, I could be loaded and ready to leave. Where would I go? It depends on the nature of the catastrophe being faced and where the worst of it's effects are, but I would suggest you all think about several geographically very different locations, including offshore options.

This post may seem like it's written by some survivalist nutter but nothing could be further from the truth. I just don't want to be taken by surprise in the event of a 'what if' scenario occurring and it costs very little to be prepared. Having said that, in the event of a nuclear incident (probably more likely from a terrorist attack than all-out war) then I'm not too sure I'd want to survive anyway. Let's just hope the planning never needs to be tested.

Have a good weekend :)
 
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