What does "Yachtmaster" mean at the moment?

[ylop]

Then I was checking the "ICC Sailing" requirements and among the various valid quals is "RYA Yachtmaster" without saying which one. Now clearly all four YM's would count so it doesn't matter but it shows that even in quite formal documents the meanings are conflated.

That seems an entirely logical use of the term - any of the YM certificates meet the need (except presumably YM Theory).

How recent do your miles need to be?

The school trying to sell you YM course probably weren’t even being specific about which one - rather than if you think you are too good for DS (the defacto route to ICC) and actually want to learn and polish skills then the YM pathway is the way to go. I guess their margin is better for that than ICC direct assessments! It also avoids any awkward conflict when the assessor believes you aren’t up to scratch but you declared yourself too experienced for the training! Probably not the case for you - but every school has stories about people who turn up believing they can sail when in fact they have been passengers or no doubt now watched youtube!

 

[ylop]

Put up a poll here. That’s the nearest you’ll get. If I heard someone had a yachtmaster qualification, I would certainly assume it was the ‘offshore ‘ they had, unless told otherwise.

Well Mark started a thread here because there is ambiguity and I suspect post 18 actually means “everyone he knows”. I’m not sure asking a bunch of old men most of who were sailing before YM(Coastal) became a YM and some of them before the “modern” YM scheme emerged in the 1970’s what “everyone” means is going to get a truely representative answer. If you have only ever known the YM(C) be part of the qualification pathway then you probably aren’t aware that “it doesn’t count” for the old sea dogs! That will certainly be anyone under 30, and probably most under 40.

 

[ylop]

It’s interesting that you mostly assume it is YM Offshore rather than YM Ocean? Why not the “top” one rather than the middle one?

Someone I know used to bang on about being a YM 30 yrs ago - so I have until this thread assumed he must have the very top level. Although given how he used to yell at his crew it might just be YM Theory!

 

[Mark-1]

That seems an entirely logical use of the term - any of the YM certificates meet the need (except presumably YM Theory).

How recent do your miles need to be?

It's totally logical, and I'm not grumbling about it, but it shows that four very different quals with different prerequisites are all covered by the same term, even on fairly official documents; 10 years IIRC. I'm not grumbling about that, makes perfect sense.

no doubt now watched youtube!

Interesting you should say that, because if I'm going to get an ICC, for the sake of £33 and an hour or so of effort one evening I think I might as well add the CEVNI. I've never been on a continental inland waterway in my life so I will certainly be learning that exclusively on youtube and my smartphone. I'll let you know if it works or not!

 

[RobbieW]

It’s interesting that you mostly assume it is YM Offshore rather than YM Ocean? Why not the “top” one rather than the middle one?...

I'd say thats because YM Offshore practical is an on-water assessment of your skills as a sailor and people manager. By contrast, YM Ocean is a viva based on your technical ability to use astro-nav techniques and general knowledge of ocean sailing. The core skills are within Offshore.

 

[Muddy32]

Having gained my BOT Yachtmaster ticket almost 60 years ago, I have never been asked to produce it.
Coupled with what sailing, I have done since give an indication of my competency though.

 

[ylop]

10 years IIRC

Interesting - I wonder if that is a hard and fast rule or just a guideline! It makes sense that someone who’s not stepped foot on a boat for the last two decades should of need something a bit more recent but it does seem a bit odd that someone with 5000 miles a decade ago, who has logged 200 miles a year for the last 10 yrs chartering perhaps all skippering would be considered ineligible whilst some 20 yr old on an accelerated course does a transatlantic trip and spends most of it in his bunk or watching an autopilot but has “experience”.

No wonder we don’t have more female Yachtmasters - oh yeah all that experience you gained in your 20’s that doesn’t count because you had children and didn’t keep logging enough miles!

 

[Mark-1]

Interesting - I wonder if that is a hard and fast rule or just a guideline! It makes sense that someone who’s not stepped foot on a boat for the last two decades should of need something a bit more recent but it does seem a bit odd that someone with 5000 miles a decade ago, who has logged 200 miles a year for the last 10 yrs chartering perhaps all skippering would be considered ineligible whilst some 20 yr old on an accelerated course does a transatlantic trip and spends most of it in his bunk or watching an autopilot but has “experience”.

No wonder we don’t have more female Yachtmasters - oh yeah all that experience you gained in your 20’s that doesn’t count because you had children and didn’t keep logging enough miles!

I'd say anyone who has a normal career and a family has their mileage drop off a cliff. When my second was born all the serious sailing stopped and I bought a 21 footer to keep locally which means my mileage dropped to zero apart from a few trips with friends. (...and it had steadily been dropping in the years before that, when School and Uni holidays were replaced with 5 weeks a year.)

Not sure it really matters. Very few people need a sailing qualification and if you did the examiner isn't going to know if your Charter in the Baltic was 2013 rather than 2016 or if your boat had a bowsprit to take it up to 25ft or not.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

1. It qualifies you for an ICC.
2. If you did the tidal version (practical), it might stop you getting well and truly fooked in the Corrywrecken, Grey Dogs, Cuan Sound .. and numerous other places around the British Isles.

 

[Bouba]

In most fields....you don’t become a master...until you have an apprentice

 

[Mark-1]

1. It qualifies you for an ICC.
2. If you did the tidal version (practical), it might stop you getting well and truly fooked in the Corrywrecken, Grey Dogs, Cuan Sound .. and numerous other places around the British Isles.

Assuming that's aimed at me:

1) It's a very expensive and time consuming way to get an ICC.
2) SWMBO and I have been through Corrywrecken 3 times and the Cuan sound 2 (or maybe 4 ) times and anchored in the anchorage that (IIRC) is sort of within it. It really wasn't that hard, pilotage rather than navigation. And yeah, numerous other places around the British Isles as well without any quals except a VHF license (...and the Baltic, and the Med.).

...but I was asking what people think it currently is, not if it was useful or not. Some people need it and some people don't need it but still find it useful, I have no quarrel with that.

 

[Bobc]

It’s interesting that you mostly assume it is YM Offshore rather than YM Ocean? Why not the “top” one rather than the middle one?

Someone I know used to bang on about being a YM 30 yrs ago - so I have until this thread assumed he must have the very top level. Although given how he used to yell at his crew it might just be YM Theory!

YM Ocean required you to do a qualifying passage (ocean passage). You had to be responsible for the victualling (and show your shopping lists), you have to keep and show a log, and had to practice celestial nav (and show your log and workings).

So to get the Ocean ticket, you had to actually do it, which 95% of sailors have not done. The ticket that 95% had was the Offshore ticket, for which the qualifying passages had to be over 50 miiles if I remember rightly.

 

[AllWinds]

Interesting - I wonder if that is a hard and fast rule or just a guideline! It makes sense that someone who’s not stepped foot on a boat for the last two decades should of need something a bit more recent but it does seem a bit odd that someone with 5000 miles a decade ago, who has logged 200 miles a year for the last 10 yrs chartering perhaps all skippering would be considered ineligible whilst some 20 yr old on an accelerated course does a transatlantic trip and spends most of it in his bunk or watching an autopilot but has “experience”.

No wonder we don’t have more female Yachtmasters - oh yeah all that experience you gained in your 20’s that doesn’t count because you had children and didn’t keep logging enough miles!

I think it's hard and fast. I find myself in this situation.

I grew up sailing in Ireland, learned everything in Tidal Waters, and I've probably done enough miles to qualify for Yachtmaster Offshore all in Tidal Waters, but some time ago. Lately, all my sailing and our boat is in the Med, so non-tidal. I have the number of miles and qualifying passages (all as skipper) done in recent years, but in the Med. I can't use my Tidal miles because they are "out of date", so I don't qualify to do the Offshore Exam. I now find myself in a position where I need to get a commercially endorsable ticket, and the Yachtmaster Coastal is the only one available to me.

For me personally, it doesn't feel like a true Yachtmaster, but it will tick a box for my needs.

Ironically, I much prefer sailing on the Atlantic to the Med, but one makes the best of what is available.

 

[Graham376]

Having gained my BOT Yachtmaster ticket almost 60 years ago, I have never been asked to produce it.
Coupled with what sailing, I have done since give an indication of my competency though.

It amused me when I was issued with my first Yachtmaster Offshore certificate in the late 90's. It was worded something along the lines of - qualified to sail as master on vessels up to 200 GRT. The wording is different now.

This seemed a bit ridiculous to think someone (myself) who had been bashing mainly around the Irish sea in Westerly Centaur and Berwick for a few years was qualified for such a large vessel.

 

[obmij]

I also completed the Coastal Skipper COC (in '97 I think) - which is now known as Yachtmaster Coastal. It differed from the Coastal Skipper course in that the course was not assessed at the end.

It is a very underappreciated qualification, but it allows people (especially young people) who do not have their own boat or access to one, to gain the qualification necessary to then gain the genuine experience required to sit the YM offshore COC. Perhaps the rebranding was to establish it as a genuine stepping stone so less people turned up for the full YM and attempted to blag it?

I suspect that a lot of people who sit the YM exam and who are young and maybe doing it for work do not have the required 5 days as skipper and especially 2 passages over 60 miles as skipper. I also reckon the examiners and the RYA in general turn a blind eye to this. Who in their right mind is going to let someone with no qualifications or command experience take their pride and joy on a 60NM jaunt without supervision?

I wonder how they wangle it with the zero to hero courses? After a certain amount of supervised mileage, do they give the boat over to students for a couple of cross channels on their tod?

 

[capnsensible]

I also completed the Coastal Skipper COC (in '97 I think) - which is now known as Yachtmaster Coastal. It differed from the Coastal Skipper course in that the course was not assessed at the end.

It is a very underappreciated qualification, but it allows people (especially young people) who do not have their own boat or access to one, to gain the qualification necessary to then gain the genuine experience required to sit the YM offshore COC. Perhaps the rebranding was to establish it as a genuine stepping stone so less people turned up for the full YM and attempted to blag it?

I suspect that a lot of people who sit the YM exam and who are young and maybe doing it for work do not have the required 5 days as skipper and especially 2 passages over 60 miles as skipper. I also reckon the examiners and the RYA in general turn a blind eye to this. Who in their right mind is going to let someone with no qualifications or command experience take their pride and joy on a 60NM jaunt without supervision?

I wonder how they wangle it with the zero to hero courses? After a certain amount of supervised mileage, do they give the boat over to students for a couple of cross channels on their tod?

It's not 'wangled' at all. Once the students have reached a good level of sailing skills, generally towards the end of a 'fastrack' course, they are sent off to complete those passages with their peer group. It's a well thought out and proven procedure.

 

[benjenbav]

It amused me when I was issued with my first Yachtmaster Offshore certificate in the late 90's. It was worded something along the lines of - qualified to sail as master on vessels up to 200 GRT. The wording is different now.

This seemed a bit ridiculous to think someone (myself) who had been bashing mainly around the Irish sea in Westerly Centaur and Berwick for a few years was qualified for such a large vessel.

Out of curiosity I just looked to see what is said on mine - a bit more recent (2011), granted.

The ‘Certificate of Competence RYA/MCA Yachtmaster Offshore’ states:

“… has been examined to standards approved by [MCA and RYA] and found competent to hold this certificate.”

The commercial endorsement states: “valid for use as a Master of yachts of up to 200gt in accordance with UK Merchant Shipping Regulations until…”

“valid for commercial use on vessels subject to the codes of practice issued by the MCA until…”

 

[ylop]

Assuming that's aimed at me:

1) It's a very expensive and time consuming way to get an ICC.

Is it? Or is this why the school was suggesting YM(Coastal)? Its an exam costing £221, if you have a suitable boat and some volunteer crew (and of course the relevant previous experience and skills). And takes 6-10hrs. But will potentially be accepted by a wider range of charters or with fewer restrictions... I couldn't find a cost or minimum duration for the ICC, but I've got in my head its the same sort of money and perhaps only half the time?

 

[ylop]

I'd say anyone who has a normal career and a family has their mileage drop off a cliff. When my second was born all the serious sailing stopped and I bought a 21 footer to keep locally which means my mileage dropped to zero apart from a few trips with friends. (...and it had steadily been dropping in the years before that, when School and Uni holidays were replaced with 5 weeks a year.)

I don't doubt that (I switched to engine power when not long after 1st child as no way was I actually going to be able to work around the unpredictability of British weather and a family as well as work). But I suspect, even in 2025, the effect will be even more pronounced on women.

Not sure it really matters. Very few people need a sailing qualification

True, but the RYA is asking itself how to be more inclusive and things like whether you see people "like you" doing the sport - if the perception is that charter skippers are either old men or youngsters perhaps they need to look at how to recognise the skills and experience people have, even if that's just to allow some of it to count or extending the exam where there is clearly experience but its older etc.

and if you did the examiner isn't going to know if your Charter in the Baltic was 2013 rather than 2016 or if your boat had a bowsprit to take it up to 25ft or not.

Ah, now a scheme set up to encourage you to lie/exaggerate doesn't seem like a very smart scheme! Personally I'm astonished that its still just a little log book you can fill in yourself with a line per day - potentially a few days before you actually sit the exam. In almost any other professional training context, you would be expected to build a portfolio of evidence (passage plan, weather forecast, stuff that went wrong, receipts/invoices, photographs or GPS tracks, and probably a section on reflective learning).

By the way I recall a debate about whether the 7m minimum was LWL or LOA - best to make sure you are clear.

 

[Mark-1]

Who in their right mind is going to let someone with no qualifications or command experience take their pride and joy on a 60NM jaunt without supervision?

IME, charter companies are pretty relaxed about renting boats - if they were precious about them, they’d be in the wrong business. I reckon it's also a myth that people spend hundreds on boats they can’t handle; so customers largely self‑select.

Certainly, every conversation I’ve had has felt more like the firm trying to persuade me to take their boat, rather than me needing to prove I was "good" enough.