What diesel fuel do I get at the Marina pump?

[maxmh27]

This has nothing to do with tax, red or white, discounts, additives, bugs, etc.. Is our diesel at the Marina pump BIo-diesel? It has just been brought to my attention that bio-diesel has a shelf life of 6 months, and I have just filled my tank up. How am I going to use 270ltrs of fuel in 6 months? I thought I'd fill up for the next 5 years. Can anyone throw some light on this?

 

[Refueler]

Lets put it this way .... many sail boats happily go about their trips with quite a few not using up their meagre tanks of diesel in a season - let along 6 months.
My 70ltr tank on my SR25 gets filled on average one time per year .. I just add a shot of enzyme add's when its filled and happily go on my way.

If the Diesel has 5% or more Bio content - then it has to be labelled on the pump ... B5 .. B7 .. B12 etc. Problem there is who inspects the pumps !!

 

[Biggles Wader]

Apart from shelf life issues does biodiesel have any side effects on our engines? I have found that E5/10 petrol has destroyed the carbs on my bike.

 

[Refueler]

Older engines had issues with Sulphur reduction ... as it basically provided some lubrication ... as the Sulphur content reduced - the fuel became drier. This then created a market for Lubricity Additives to bring Diesel up to spec.

As to Bio .... it loves water ... but the low concentrations as per B5 .. B7 - this is really a tech point rather than a practical one.

Your Bike Carbs .... its easy to blame Ethanol as in your E5 .. E10 ... but gasoline is made up of many different components ... true gasoline is rare now ... I was blending the stuff for years (diesel as well) ... you really do not want to know what goes into gasoline today ...

 

[PetiteFleur]

Our boatyard no longer sells red diesel to pleasure owners so I use road diesel and add MR16 to combat a ny bug issues.

 

[Sandy]

This has nothing to do with tax, red or white, discounts, additives, bugs, etc.. Is our diesel at the Marina pump BIo-diesel? It has just been brought to my attention that bio-diesel has a shelf life of 6 months, and I have just filled my tank up. How am I going to use 270ltrs of fuel in 6 months? I thought I'd fill up for the next 5 years. Can anyone throw some light on this?

You will need to speak to the marina that you buy your fuel from at each filling.

I have been using white diesel from J Sainsburys, Tesco, Shell and BP for about five years and never had a problem.

 

[Lifeboater]

Apart from shelf life issues does biodiesel have any side effects on our engines? I have found that E5/10 petrol has destroyed the carbs on my bike.

Bio diesel has a far better lubricity figure than normal diesel, so don't worry, be happy for your injection pump in particular. STAY WELL CLEAR OF DIESEL THAT HAS USED VEGGIE OIL IN IT, as that stuff does the opposite. OK in a tractor but not a modern diesel.

Cheap marine fuel is not as good as major brand roadside diesel, and does not contain much in the way of anti gell or injection system cleaner additives in particular. Cheap diesel from any source outside the main part of the EU often has a high Sulphur content. If you use that type of dubious fuel, DON'T USE LOW POWER SETTINGS, as it forms Sulphuric acid rather than Sulphur trioxide that is not harmful. Any acid inside the cylinders is bad news for the rings and valve guide oil seals in particular.

In some hot third world countries the local cheap diesel contains a few percent of industrial alcohol to help prevent diesel bug getting worse. This time you really don't want to use high power settings, as it can result in pre ignition if the engine gets hot enough. Not good for the exhaust valve seats and valve guide oil seals.

Unless you are 100% sure you are buying clean diesel, PRE-FILTER IT before it goes in the fuel tank. I used to use an alloy BAJA filter funnel, but there are other modern plastic filter funnels available. The good old fuel filter would stop water, which is the real cause of diesel bug. In base cases I used to let my fuel cans stand for a few days before using a small inline pump to top up a fuel tank, that way I could see how bad the fuel was. To detect Sulphur just press a few drops of suspect diesel between 2 glass plates and look for brown spots.
Interesting web site for red fuel fans: Sulphur Levels in Diesel Explained

 

[Lifeboater]

Bio diesel has a far better lubricity figure than normal diesel, so don't worry, be happy for your injection pump in particular. STAY WELL CLEAR OF DIESEL THAT HAS USED VEGGIE OIL IN IT, as that stuff does the opposite. OK in a tractor but not a modern diesel.

Cheap marine fuel is not as good as major brand roadside diesel, and does not contain much in the way of anti gell or injection system cleaner additives in particular. Cheap diesel from any source outside the main part of the EU often has a high Sulphur content. If you use that type of dubious fuel, DON'T USE LOW POWER SETTINGS, as it forms Sulphuric acid rather than Sulphur trioxide that is not harmful. Any acid inside the cylinders is bad news for the rings and valve guide oil seals in particular.

In some hot third world countries the local cheap diesel contains a few percent of industrial alcohol to help prevent diesel bug getting worse. This time you really don't want to use high power settings, as it can result in pre ignition if the engine gets hot enough. Not good for the exhaust valve seats and valve guide oil seals.

Unless you are 100% sure you are buying clean diesel, PRE-FILTER IT before it goes in the fuel tank. I used to use an alloy BAJA filter funnel, but there are other modern plastic filter funnels available. The good old fuel filter would stop water, which is the real cause of diesel bug. In base cases I used to let my fuel cans stand for a few days before using a small inline pump to top up a fuel tank, that way I could see how bad the fuel was. To detect Sulphur just press a few drops of suspect diesel between 2 glass plates and look for brown spots.
Interesting web site for red fuel fans: Sulphur Levels in Diesel Explained

PS: This page is also worth reading. Bio diesel is not easy to find in some places, so be careful about some clown including too much used veggie oil.

 

[Lifeboater]

Biodiesel Supplier

 

[PeterBoater]

I believe that the original intention was for outlets on tidal waters to sell non-FAME diesel, whereas outlets on non-tidal waters could sell diesel with some FAME.

 

[bikedaft]

I do usually ask, usually the marina states no FAME, which is what i am looking for.

 

[Graham376]

It has just been brought to my attention that bio-diesel has a shelf life of 6 months,

I don't know who's giving that advice but our boat tank has road diesel in it (not sure whether 5 or 10%), much of which is 4 years old. It runs fine, just as it has done for many years with bio content.

 

[ChromeDome]

Over here the marina diesel is specified as Off Road Diesel.

Standards and taxes admittedly differ, but they state

"Off Road Diesel is uncoloured diesel fuel without the addition of biodiesel. This type of diesel must not be used as [road] transport diesel."

The petrol is 100 octane RON with 5% veggie juice.

The petrol is available also from many stations and preferred by many performance car owners

 

[Refueler]

I will not get into the 'cesspit' of misleading info that gets put around about fuel ... but :

Too often the term Bio-Diesel is misused .... if I was with you in a station and you asked me where is the Bio-Diesel - I would look for the 100% Bio-version of diesel. If you then pointed at a regular diesel pump and said that was the Bio-Diesel - I would say its ULSD B5 .. B7 or whatever ..

Regular ULSD of B5 .. 7 .. 10 .. 12 etc effectively has no shelf life if kept in reasonable tanks or containers.

Full Bio-Diesel though has a different characteristic and often will have stabilisers added.

OK ... FAME is the most common form of Bio added to Diesel ... and FAME itself has a liking for moisture.
In the transportation of FAME - short sea trips are fine .. but some comes in to Europe from USA and that can suffer due to sea voyage ... during the years I was blending - we disliked USA origin FAME.
Discussions were held as to whether FAME should be carried under a Nitrogen blanket or not ... when I stopped blending - there still was no clear decision.
Its extremely difficult to determine Water content of FAME as the density's are too similar. Lab equipment had to be designed specifically for this ... and it took years for that gear to evolve and improve.

A post earlier mentioned lubrication propertys .... a non-issue regardless of what pump you take your diesel from - all retail diesel is tested and treated to meet internationally recognised levels of Lubricity .....

I have diesel in my tanks that is from early 2023 summer ... am I worried about it ?? No certainly not. Is it special diesel ? No it is not. Only thing I do when I fill up - is add a shot of Enzyme based Micro-Bio additive to keep my system clean.

 

[Slowboat35]

I must be behind the times. When my boat needs refuelling I fill the tank with something called "diesel" which comes from a pump or drum so labelled - because it has a diesel engine and that's what it burns. I do the same with my Landy and tractor. The only problem I ever had was when I filled the Freelander with petrol. I expect if I put diesel in the XK8 it would object too. (That gets fed something called 'petrol' - the fuel it was designed for and oddly enough it doesn't show any signs of needing anything different/specioal/exotic/modified either...)
I have no idea what FAME is, how could I? It's not a term known to any normal consumer, and I suspect I know the reason why. They simply don't need to...
Even less idea what ULSD might be - but does any normal consumer care?
Diesel engines use diesel fuel. Why would anyone want to over-think that self-evident fact?
As to a "pre-filter" - where do I buy one (amazon and ebay can't help) and what does it do? I just use an ordinary filter when I think it necessary - without any preliminary process other than sometimes a funnel. Is that a "pre" filter?
It strikes me that some people are getting their knickers into a totally unnecessary twist over uber-technical esoterica and acronyms that is unlikely to affect anyone in reality as we see on so many threads here where vastly over specified solutions are excitedly sought to solve the simplest of jobs where the normal, traditional and most obvious method is almost invariably the right way.
So I'll just stick to diesel fuel in my diesel engines, and maybe add a dash of biocide in the boat occasionally - and keep an eye on the ordinary, common-or-garden no-prefix (well, maybe 'inline') filter and water-trap...
Boy, how over-complicated can the simplest of matters in life be made?

 

[Refueler]

I must be behind the times. When my boat needs refuelling I fill the tank with something called "diesel" which comes from a pump or drum so labelled - because it has a diesel engine and that's what it burns. I do the same with my Landy and tractor. The only problem I ever had was when I filled the Freelander with petrol. I expect if I put diesel in the XK8 it would object too. (That gets fed something called 'petrol' - the fuel it was designed for and oddly enough it doesn't show any signs of needing anything different/specioal/exotic/modified either...)
I have no idea what FAME is, how could I? It's not a term known to any normal consumer, and I suspect I know the reason why. They simply don't need to...
Even less idea what ULSD might be - but does any normal consumer care?
Diesel engines use diesel fuel. Why would anyone want to over-think that self-evident fact?
As to a "pre-filter" - where do I buy one (amazon and ebay can't help) and what does it do? I just use an ordinary filter when I think it necessary - without any preliminary process other than sometimes a funnel. Is that a "pre" filter?
It strikes me that some people are getting their knickers into a totally unnecessary twist over uber-technical esoterica and acronyms that is unlikely to affect anyone in reality as we see on so many threads here where vastly over specified solutions are excitedly sought to solve the simplest of jobs where the normal, traditional and most obvious method is almost invariably the right way.
So I'll just stick to diesel fuel in my diesel engines, and maybe add a dash of biocide in the boat occasionally - and keep an eye on the ordinary, common-or-garden no-prefix (well, maybe 'inline') filter and water-trap...
Boy, how over-complicated can the simplest of matters in life be made?

Despite my novel preceding your post - I totally agree with you. People are taking info and getting 'knickers in a twist' ....

Just so you know ... although you are not bothered !

FAME : Fatty Acid Methyl Esters .... its the name given to the fuel resulting from processing 'renewable sources'.

ULSD : Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel ..... White Road Diesel as you call it.

 

[Slowboat35]

Thanks for the translations.
Quite how or why any normal consumer would be concerned about them is a puzzlement, but then few normal consumers would ever come across them. This is the same as people reading about ingredients with long names theyndon't understand in food and getting twitched about them because in their technical unawareness they have no idea at all what they mean, why they are significant, why they are neccesary. ~they just beef that they are "additives" - and usually necessary for one reason or another.

Diesel fuel for diesl engines, I say!

 

[vyv_cox]

At the end of the season before lockdown my tank was 3/4 full with Greek road fuel from the mini-tankers that are ubiquitous in Greece. The fuel contains FAME, content unknown but probably 7%. I have never added any extra products but I do ensure that there is no water in the tank. After three years unused the engine ran perfectly well on that fuel, consumed it all and was replaced with new.

 

[Refueler]

At the end of the season before lockdown my tank was 3/4 full with Greek road fuel from the mini-tankers that are ubiquitous in Greece. The fuel contains FAME, content unknown but probably 7%. I have never added any extra products but I do ensure that there is no water in the tank. After three years unused the engine ran perfectly well on that fuel, consumed it all and was replaced with new.

The % of Bio in Diesel / Gasoline has had to be revised year after year ... initially a planned increase of % was set by EU and other bodies. But due to production never meeting the required volumes - such guidelines have been put back numerous times.
Any Bio volume of 5% or more - should be stated on the Station Pump ... ie B7 .. B10 etc.

 

[bikedaft]

I must be behind the times. When my boat needs refuelling I fill the tank with something called "diesel" which comes from a pump or drum so labelled - because it has a diesel engine and that's what it burns. I do the same with my Landy and tractor. The only problem I ever had was when I filled the Freelander with petrol. I expect if I put diesel in the XK8 it would object too. (That gets fed something called 'petrol' - the fuel it was designed for and oddly enough it doesn't show any signs of needing anything different/specioal/exotic/modified either...)
I have no idea what FAME is, how could I? It's not a term known to any normal consumer, and I suspect I know the reason why. They simply don't need to...
Even less idea what ULSD might be - but does any normal consumer care?
Diesel engines use diesel fuel. Why would anyone want to over-think that self-evident fact?
As to a "pre-filter" - where do I buy one (amazon and ebay can't help) and what does it do? I just use an ordinary filter when I think it necessary - without any preliminary process other than sometimes a funnel. Is that a "pre" filter?
It strikes me that some people are getting their knickers into a totally unnecessary twist over uber-technical esoterica and acronyms that is unlikely to affect anyone in reality as we see on so many threads here where vastly over specified solutions are excitedly sought to solve the simplest of jobs where the normal, traditional and most obvious method is almost invariably the right way.
So I'll just stick to diesel fuel in my diesel engines, and maybe add a dash of biocide in the boat occasionally - and keep an eye on the ordinary, common-or-garden no-prefix (well, maybe 'inline') filter and water-trap...
Boy, how over-complicated can the simplest of matters in life be made?

The reason diesel fuel sellers who sell to offshore going boats have no FAME content is reliability - my Yanmar 3GM30F (ancient I know) would almost certainly run fine with some FAME content - however Yanmar state not to use FAME at all (in this engine) - I would not like to find out why in a moment of crisis off some rocks etc.

Similarly commercial fishing boats etc use FAME free, they buy at the same places that we do.

I can see why pleasure boats may use FAME from road pumps, or not.

Sure there may be a collective mass panic about FAME, but until Yanmar change what they state about my engine (not going to happen!) I see using FAME as an extra risk, that is easily avoided, by buying from marinas that sell FAME free.

As Refueler states, there are plenty of things that happen to different fuels in different parts of the world at different temperatures, in the background, that most customers are unaware of. What does your engine manufacturer state about your engine and FAME? Seems only reasonable to ask?