What a shame

[Egret]

Agree with Blueboatman. Never understand why people will spend £30-60,000 on a beach hut when they could have a little boat on a half tide mooring for very little cost.

 

[Sandy]

Ah old folk bleating on about young people being soft.
The operating and ongoing maintenance costs of a "nice" boat aren't that different from a "needs TLC" boat so why waste your time on the latter if you can afford the capital of the former.
Many expensive purchase decisions in the 21st century are more likely to be joint.

Here, less of the old folk. I am an eight year old trapped in the body of a sixty something.

Where did I mention young people being soft. They are different. They appear from my advancing years, I am not at Zimmer frame level yet, to have shorter attention spans and very different skills.

Where the young will get any cash to buy a boat, be that a new one or a fixer up is a very different question.

 

[Egret]

Not sure whether there is really an issue with the young boating - just different - in my part of the country, lots of children sailing, but once they have got their A levels and university degrees the only place with work for many of them is in London and it is a bit far to get back so they are buying very expensive flats in London as train travel is expensive (Anytime Return now £99.50 to Ipswich so a bit much to come back for a 2 hour race) and unreliable. Gone are the days of people living and working in the local town, leisure activities together, Round Table and all buying boats, joining the local club and sailing together in the same place - things change.

Ref Neeves #3 J24s?- Plenty of Sonatas available for very little cost as starter boats - and good class racing in the right places.

 

[ducked]

I'm not as sure about that.

The less woodwork there is, the less there is to age. And of course as companies have got better at production control, less "filler" pieces have been required. If you go to the brilliant PBO thread "I hate to see a good boat put down" you will see lots of instances where the builder of that boat had glassed plywood into the structure, which was now rotting and needed replacing. A modern boat doesn't have this in the same way.

I think that it's actually more likely that plenty of current boats will survive in basically sound condition, where a little cosmetic work and system updates will be all that is required.

And those boats will probably be more like the cars of today, in that it won't be hull structure etc that eventually condemns them, but engines, rigging etc.

Again with the car analogy, which has been worked quite hard above. I dont know that much about old boats, having only just acquired one, but I know a bit about old cars, and I doubt the analogy is a very good fit.

Say pre-cat up to the 90's, old cars used to be "bangers" and cheap, and are now "classics" and not so cheap. The main attraction apart from this cheapness was maintainability. Because they were simple they were generally robust. I could generally fix them without special skills or equipment, and without having to worry about making mystery money lights go out.

New cars prevent this in many ways. They are complex and highly integrated, being burdened with loads of superfluous shite that can stop them working, they require expensive and proprietary diagnostic and programming software, they sometimes have ludicrously expensive replacement components (LED light clusters, for example) which are coded to prevent or complicate the use of recycled bits, and there are specific examples of horribly fragile innovations, such as DPF on diesels or belt-in-oil petrol engines.

As far as I can tell this doesnt really apply in the same way to boats, and to the extent it does it seems to be mostly the other way around. True classics will be wooden, and, while they are maintainable, it requires traditional skills and materials in short supply. Plastic classics (GRP) boats are often said to be tougher (thicker layup) than new ones and (I hope) are repairable relatively simply.

The only general decline in maintainability (engines and electronics aside) I'm aware of is in the use of cored decks. These arent perhaps economically repairable, but I'd think it might still be doable DIY, though I might be kidding myself. Cored (and advanced composite) hulls might be another matter.

The main difference between cars and boats, however, is that the (considerable) pressure from The Man to scrap old cars does not apply to old boats, yet. No nautical MOT, for example.

It would be a real shame if the sort of consumerist disapproval expressed here provided any support for it from the inside.

 

[obmij]

There are well over 100 abandoned boats in one location near me. The council have been talking about clearing it up for years and have allocated a considerable amount of money to do so (paid for by council tax payers, the majority of whom have never been on a yacht in their lives). Anyway the money allocated was obviously not enough as most of the abandoned boats are still there. They can be quite photogenic in the right kind of light, in a rotting and slime covered way - if that's what you like.

There are also many tons of abandoned ground tackle, an issue which no-one has even considered addressing.

Anyway that is just one site - I am guessing that most people near the coast will know of a similar place.

Then there are the local sailing clubs and their yards - crammed full of projects and 'temporary' layups which have been there for 20 years. Everyone knows, even the owners on some kind of level that these boats will never float unless sea levels do actually rise as predicted in 2150 - and then they will promptly sink again. The only way out of the yard for these wrecks is in a skip.

So well done to the gentleman who has paid for his unviable project to be scrapped. It is a hard decision to make, especially when there are many years of tinkering and of course sunk cost in there as well. My guess is he will be enjoying the feeling of relief that comes when you make that decision.

 

[Wansworth]

The fundamental issue is that owning and operating yacht / boat is expensive and time consuming, for some that burden gradually becomes to great, the boat is run on a shoestring and maintenance gets put off and ignored. When ultimately it is either a wreck, too onerous to keep or age dictates that one can no longer sail or maintain it, it becomes the liability that the OP describes.
You either have deep pockets and pay to have your boat maintained or you do the work yourself and budget for it accordingly, if you can't or won't do either then it's the wrong pastime.

Your right, few in our yard in exactly same situation, being priced out of boating is becoming the norm for us less well heeled old folks. A night in Ramsgate 40 quid now I'm told.

Correct…….I can buy a 9 mgr yacht or a 7 meter for the same price but it’s the maintenance and storage that are details that I worry about more.Iguess at the end of use it could be given away

 

[Egret]

Presumably there is not a harbour authority where there are 100 abandoned boats. Ours has been clearing them out a few at a time, as they arise, over very many years, at one time putting a notice on them then auctioning and often getting a buyer. More recently some have had to be disposed at cost which is taken out of the harbour dues payments. A problem is that it has taken away places for the big seabirds to nest, so they are nesting on active boats if you don't visit often, and once they are there. stay virtually the whole summer - they are very good parents but a bit aggressive if you go too close.

 

[ylop]

Presumably there is not a harbour authority where there are 100 abandoned boats. Ours has been clearing them out a few at a time, as they arise, over very many years, at one time putting a notice on them then auctioning and often getting a buyer. More recently some have had to be disposed at cost which is taken out of the harbour dues payments. A problem is that it has taken away places for the big seabirds to nest, so they are nesting on active boats if you don't visit often, and once they are there stay virtually the whole summer - they are very good parents but a bit aggressive if you go too close.

yes a 100 abandoned boats sounds like theres space for a commercial opportunity given how hard to find berths are.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Agree with Blueboatman. Never understand why people will spend £30-60,000 on a beach hut when they could have a little boat on a half tide mooring for very little cost.

Because they don't want a boat ?

I once mentioned to my brother that i was disappointed that none of the family wanted to come out on my boat, he replied "the boat is your hobby, not theirs"

 

[Wansworth]

I remember clearly my father hauling us off to a boat grave yard near Kingston,or Twickenham in the late 1950s……old wreaks are not new.

 

[flaming]

Again with the car analogy, which has been worked quite hard above. I dont know that much about old boats, having only just acquired one, but I know a bit about old cars, and I doubt the analogy is a very good fit.

Say pre-cat up to the 90's, old cars used to be "bangers" and cheap, and are now "classics" and not so cheap. The main attraction apart from this cheapness was maintainability. Because they were simple they were generally robust. I could generally fix them without special skills or equipment, and without having to worry about making mystery money lights go out.

New cars prevent this in many ways. They are complex and highly integrated, being burdened with loads of superfluous shite that can stop them working, they require expensive and proprietary diagnostic and programming software, they sometimes have ludicrously expensive replacement components (LED light clusters, for example) which are coded to prevent or complicate the use of recycled bits, and there are specific examples of horribly fragile innovations, such as DPF on diesels or belt-in-oil petrol engines.

As far as I can tell this doesnt really apply in the same way to boats, and to the extent it does it seems to be mostly the other way around. True classics will be wooden, and, while they are maintainable, it requires traditional skills and materials in short supply. Plastic classics (GRP) boats are often said to be tougher (thicker layup) than new ones and (I hope) are repairable relatively simply.

The only general decline in maintainability (engines and electronics aside) I'm aware of is in the use of cored decks. These arent perhaps economically repairable, but I'd think it might still be doable DIY, though I might be kidding myself. Cored (and advanced composite) hulls might be another matter.

The main difference between cars and boats, however, is that the (considerable) pressure from The Man to scrap old cars does not apply to old boats, yet. No nautical MOT, for example.

It would be a real shame if the sort of consumerist disapproval expressed here provided any support for it from the inside.

That was pretty much the point I was making...

That the GRP hull of modern boats is not going to be the bit that in 30/40 years time has people passing it over. It'll be the ancillary parts needing replacing and as boats have gotten bigger so have those parts... Need a new mast for a 35 foot AWB in 40 years, and that's going to be a lot more than a lot of DIY type people will be able to stomach.
And that's before we even consider if Diesel engines are still available to replace what's currently there....

 

[Egret]

A boat disposal company indicates that residual fibreglass will be burned in a large waste to energy plant - cost seems reasonable -that seems a good answer for now - no connection - Local waste to energy plant good - no visible smoke - never know whether it is working, but it is.

I've also seen that fibreglass can be ground down and turned into filler/ aggregate for asphalt, concrete, plastic mouldings etc so maybe the 100 boats is enough to start with make it economic to buy the equipment - seems a good idea. Has been done with solid byproduct of a refining process locally - mixed in with standard aggregate.

Hence not likely for all to have to go to landfill.

I have one nearing the day, so when it comes nice to think it may be put to further use.

 

[Alicatt]

I remember clearly my father hauling us off to a boat grave yard near Kingston,or Twickenham in the late 1950s……old wreaks are not new.

Mine used to take me to Faslane Shipbreakers quite regularly, the original fire escape in our hotel was a steel companionway from an ex navy ship

 

[Neeves]

That was pretty much the point I was making...

That the GRP hull of modern boats is not going to be the bit that in 30/40 years time has people passing it over. It'll be the ancillary parts needing replacing and as boats have gotten bigger so have those parts... Need a new mast for a 35 foot AWB in 40 years, and that's going to be a lot more than a lot of DIY type people will be able to stomach.
And that's before we even consider if Diesel engines are still available to replace what's currently there....

Most of the mooring minders we have on Pittwater don't need Diesel engines, they are designed to accept a small outboard (and an electric outboard is no longer a dream). Similarly you don't need expensive kit to sail on Pittwater, Sydney Harbour nor Lake Solent. Paper charts, or your phone/iPad are more than adequate and the waters are such to provide a safe place to learn. The yachts are day sailors - 18' - 30'. We tend not to have mooring minders in the 30' to 45' foot range. Admittedly these yachts are not going to win races, but J24s, Flying 15s, Etchells, Dragons (and other similarly sized (popular then, eg Sonatas) still have a very active race circuits - internationally. They will not cross your Channel (nor Bass Strait) but they are perfectly adequate to learn the fine art of sail trim.

We don't know the size of the yacht that sparked this thread - but the owner decided the mast needed to be re-newed - and then decided he (or his family?) no longer wanted the yacht - a new mast will be going to waste - and that is the odd thing about the thread. You don't pay to instal a new mast and rigging (implying that at the time the yacht merited the investment) - and then send the same yacht to the scrap yard 2 years later.

Shame really


Jonathan

 

[obmij]

We don't know the size of the yacht that sparked this thread - but the owner decided the mast needed to be re-newed - and then decided he (or his family?) no longer wanted the yacht - a new mast will be going to waste - and that is the odd thing about the thread. You don't pay to instal a new mast and rigging (implying that at the time the yacht merited the investment) - and then send the same yacht to the scrap yard 2 years later.

Shame really


Jonathan

It doesn't seem logical, but sometimes it is the best decision. In fact I did something similar myself.

In my early 20's I bought a 1960's Hurley 22 - the cheapest on the market - and sailed her home. No functioning electronics and a wheezy petrol inboard which would overheat after 10 minutes. The rig was knackered ( I thought stretched) but I was confident that with a bit of graft I would see her right. Like most people of that age I was working full time so all time in the yard was around my day job. I removed the engine and made good the glass work, removed and refitted basic electrics including nav and interior lights, VHF, depth and GPS, I replaced all the standing rigging and put a new furler on (previously hanked on sails).

It was the rigging that did me first. Stupid in hindsight but I hadn't clocked the mast compression. Not an insurmountable problem - but not good news when you've just put a new rig on. I was taking my mind of it by removing all the old antifoul when I realised that although she had been on the hard for months, rusty water was still dripping from the encapsulated keel. I had seen this but had somehow managed to willfully ignore it. Faced with the prospect of a compromised keel with rotting ballast, the goosed deck - and who knows what else (not to mention ongoing yard fees) it was at this point I decided to sell the boat and did so for a quid.

I lost thousands in sunk cost that at 23ish I could ill afford to lose but nevertheless it was one of the best deals I have ever done.

 

[obmij]

There was a guy on here a good few years ago, his name was Roger something and he was restoring his dads Centaur. He had a blog detailing the work. He was a real craftsman, I think a cabinetmaker by trade. I followed his blog with admiration.

To cut a long story short, a genuinely skilled and motivated person, with free storage at home and after a good few years of work he chainsawed it and sent it away in a skip.

Point being, once a boat has deteriorated past a certain point, unless you have the wherewithal and inclination to throw a sh1t ton of money at it, far in excess of any restored value, there is no way back.

It's hard to accept that - hence the clutter in yards and boats left to rot on moorings.

 

[ylop]

You don't pay to instal a new mast and rigging (implying that at the time the yacht merited the investment) - and then send the same yacht to the scrap yard 2 years later.

If we all had perfect foresight that would likely be true but I dare say he won’t be the first person to have spent a load of money on a boat renovation to get part way thorough and realise there more wrong with it than you though and your choice is pour more money in or cut your losses; or the first to have been part into a project and had a change of health or other circumstances which means you can’t finish but now have a boat in bits nobody wants to buy; or to find yourself realising your are spending more on storage, insurance, etc than the boat will ever be worth and those costs are going up each year whilst your probability of ever going back afloat is going down.

 

[ducked]

That was pretty much the point I was making...

That the GRP hull of modern boats is not going to be the bit that in 30/40 years time has people passing it over. It'll be the ancillary parts needing replacing and as boats have gotten bigger so have those parts... Need a new mast for a 35 foot AWB in 40 years, and that's going to be a lot more than a lot of DIY type people will be able to stomach.
And that's before we even consider if Diesel engines are still available to replace what's currently there....

Well, scale is to some extent a separate issue, and its more a socioeconomic than a technical one. Bigger boats are aspirational status symbols, and bigger old boats are not. Someone mentioned the possibility of an emerging Chinese market up thread. Extreme case, but you wont get Chinese adopting old boats, since that would confer unbearable loss of face.

The so far relatively liberal regulatory environment I mentioned is a potential partial saving grace here though. Boats are modular, and you could fit a wide range of masts (including a tree) and rigs to just about any boat and it'll still work after a fashion, nor will The Man come along and tell you not to, which would happen with a car (no modifications of any kind legal in Taiwan, for example). You dont have to have an engine in a sailboat, and its perhaps the perfect platform for aftermarket electric auxilliary propulsion.

 

[Neeves]

Well, scale is to some extent a separate issue, and its more a socioeconomic than a technical one. Bigger boats are aspirational status symbols, and bigger old boats are not. Someone mentioned the possibility of an emerging Chinese market up thread. Extreme case, but you wont get Chinese adopting old boats, since that would confer unbearable loss of face.

Not entirely true

When Jelik reached end of life it was given to a group of young HK Chinese who sailed it in a China Coast Cup.

But there is a strong element of truth as various Beau Gestes, campaigned round the world, will indicate.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

There was a guy on here a good few years ago, his name was Roger something and he was restoring his dads Centaur. He had a blog detailing the work. He was a real craftsman, I think a cabinetmaker by trade. I followed his blog with admiration.

To cut a long story short, a genuinely skilled and motivated person, with free storage at home and after a good few years of work he chainsawed it and sent it away in a skip.

Point being, once a boat has deteriorated past a certain point, unless you have the wherewithal and inclination to throw a sh1t ton of money at it, far in excess of any restored value, there is no way back.

It's hard to accept that - hence the clutter in yards and boats left to rot on moorings.

This is a vid of a bloke called, coincidentally - Roger. He rebuilt a yacht - I suppose he represents PBO

He did not chain saw his yacht , he must have ignored the negativity - and he did sail it round the UK.

Fulmar Concerto

It is possible, you do need a positive attitude

Jonathan