Westerly headlining probs - is removing and just painting an option?

[obmij]

I know this is practical boat owner, but since you don't actually own the boat yet, why not get a quote to have the headlining redone professionally and make an offer that splits the difference?

Fwiw mine was held up with battons. Not perfect, but good enough not to undergo the disruption.

like others I would not leave bare / painted GRP. It will be a clammy mess.

 

[justanothersailboat]

By "flowcoated" you mean polyester resin gelcoat, but with added wax so it'll cure outside a mould? An Internyet search finds this stuff

Topcoat Resin/Flowcoat - Resin Library

...
Would be quite a lot of work for the whole interior but rendering the head compartment surface easily wiped-down seems a worthwhile mold-supressing goal, and once/if that was done then I could decide whether to take it any further.

Exactly. Easy wipedown was the aim!

I am not sure I believe that foam backed vinyl really offers protection against condensation. I have seen it get condensation-slick and I've also seen it apparently stay dry while damp and mould builds up trapped behind it. Ugh. Never again. I think that if you want to keep your boat warm you need to close down ventilation, after which you need a dehumidifier and a shore power connection and even that might not be enough.

If you are not really feeble it is better to leave a strong airflow through the boat while sleeping, at which point insulation is pointless but you won't have condensation problems. Once you're in your bedding the air temperature is almost irrelevant, English cold can't kill you, mould and stuffiness can. I've been totally happy with the forehatch wide down to about four c. Much less than that and the ice-stiff halyards and slick decks in the morning render sailing rather less fun for me. I appreciate this is insufficient if your name is Shackleton but he didn't have foam backed vinyl either... (How many modern AWBs have foam backed vinyl for that matter? We should exile the stuff back to the 70s...)

If you have ply ceiling panels, they're not preventing condensation - they're not air sealed to the deck. Condensation behind them is not great either. I replaced my rotting ceiling ply but didn't re-cover it, I want it to be able to dry out rather than trapping moisture in it in a vinyl bag. Also birch ply dyed white and lacquered looks far nicer than vile vinyl pleather. Fortunately saloon ceilings are the easy bit. It's awkward shapes in the v berth, and where saloon meets cockpit, that pose trickier choices.

It would be interesting to really insulate a boat but reconciling a proper vapour barrier with glassed-in bulkheads would take a bunch of thought and effort. I'd be curious to try but if it wasn't a totally joined-up plan it would be storing up problems.

 

[Akestor]

Without insulation there will be a significant problem with condensation from the inside.

 

[ducked]

Exactly. Easy wipedown was the aim!

I am not sure I believe that foam backed vinyl really offers protection against condensation. I have seen it get condensation-slick and I've also seen it apparently stay dry while damp and mould builds up trapped behind it. Ugh. Never again. I think that if you want to keep your boat warm you need to close down ventilation, after which you need a dehumidifier and a shore power connection and even that might not be enough.

If you are not really feeble it is better to leave a strong airflow through the boat while sleeping, at which point insulation is pointless but you won't have condensation problems. Once you're in your bedding the air temperature is almost irrelevant, English cold can't kill you, mould and stuffiness can. I've been totally happy with the forehatch wide down to about four c. Much less than that and the ice-stiff halyards and slick decks in the morning render sailing rather less fun for me. I appreciate this is insufficient if your name is Shackleton but he didn't have foam backed vinyl either... (How many modern AWBs have foam backed vinyl for that matter? We should exile the stuff back to the 70s...)

If you have ply ceiling panels, they're not preventing condensation - they're not air sealed to the deck. Condensation behind them is not great either. I replaced my rotting ceiling ply but didn't re-cover it, I want it to be able to dry out rather than trapping moisture in it in a vinyl bag. Also birch ply dyed white and lacquered looks far nicer than vile vinyl pleather. Fortunately saloon ceilings are the easy bit. It's awkward shapes in the v berth, and where saloon meets cockpit, that pose trickier choices.

It would be interesting to really insulate a boat but reconciling a proper vapour barrier with glassed-in bulkheads would take a bunch of thought and effort. I'd be curious to try but if it wasn't a totally joined-up plan it would be storing up problems.

I spent a year sleeping in a Nissan Sunny while doing a Masters at Aberdeen University, but then I moved to Taiwan for a decade or two, and carelessly became old, so it remains to be seen how feeble I am now.

Certainly the air is generally a lot cleaner in Scotland, encouraging ventilation, though not quite so much in Boness, where the boat is.

Flued heating, powered by diesel, charcoal or butane, if it were possible to arrange that, seems to have some potential to remove water vapour without being plugged in to shore power though.

 

[ducked]

Two reasons not to simply paint the f/glass.
1/ You plan to keep the boat for 20 years, do you really want to live with a daggy looking interior for all that time?
2/ You are reducing the - limited - insulation that the foam backed vinyl provides.

What model Westerly? Mine is a Sealord, head liner is foam backed vinyl glued to plywood panels, cabin sides were foam backed vinyl simply glued to the hull.
Had all but the fore cabin professionally done 25 years ago. I have long since forgotten the price

Since then I have increased the insulation by gluing 4mm EVA foam directly to the deckhead and then replacing the ply/vinyl panels. The EVA foam is cheap, just buy camping mats and trim to size.
Inside the lockers I have replaced the vinyl with 6mm EVA with the 'silver' face.

The fore cabin aka the 'Black Hole of Calcutta but Colder and Wetter'?
I had an upholsterer in NZ do most of that ten years ago. He did the ply panels but was disinclined to do the coachroof sides and aft bulkhead with vinyl and suggested 'carpet'. Was remarkably successful - no condensation at all even under extreme conditions.
Once again I did the locker insides and a few other bits with the 6mm silver backed EVA.
View attachment 188244




View attachment 188245View attachment 188246View attachment 188248

I'd be tempted to leave it all silvery, Gary Glitters Gondola stylee.

 

[Refueler]

I spent a year sleeping in a Nissan Sunny while doing a Masters at Aberdeen University, but then I moved to Taiwan for a decade or two, and carelessly became old, so it remains to be seen how feeble I am now.

Certainly the air is generally a lot cleaner in Scotland, encouraging ventilation, though not quite so much in Boness, where the boat is.

Flued heating, powered by diesel, charcoal or butane, if it were possible to arrange that, seems to have some potential to remove water vapour without being plugged in to shore power though.

Heating will raise the airs ability to retain moisture ... turn the heating off and where does all that excess moisture go ??

 

[PaulRainbow]

Exactly. Easy wipedown was the aim!

I am not sure I believe that foam backed vinyl really offers protection against condensation. I have seen it get condensation-slick and I've also seen it apparently stay dry while damp and mould builds up trapped behind it. Ugh. Never again. I think that if you want to keep your boat warm you need to close down ventilation, after which you need a dehumidifier and a shore power connection and even that might not be enough.

You don't seem to understand how condensation works. Lack of ventilation increases it. A person creates about 400g of water vapour per day, where do you suppose this goes if there is no ventilation ?

If you are not really feeble it is better to leave a strong airflow through the boat while sleeping, at which point insulation is pointless but you won't have condensation problems. Once you're in your bedding the air temperature is almost irrelevant, English cold can't kill you, mould and stuffiness can. I've been totally happy with the forehatch wide down to about four c. Much less than that and the ice-stiff halyards and slick decks in the morning render sailing rather less fun for me. I appreciate this is insufficient if your name is Shackleton but he didn't have foam backed vinyl either... (How many modern AWBs have foam backed vinyl for that matter? We should exile the stuff back to the 70s...)

Are we going for "strong airflow" or "close down ventilation" ?

If you have ply ceiling panels, they're not preventing condensation - they're not air sealed to the deck. Condensation behind them is not great either. I replaced my rotting ceiling ply but didn't re-cover it, I want it to be able to dry out rather than trapping moisture in it in a vinyl bag. Also birch ply dyed white and lacquered looks far nicer than vile vinyl pleather. Fortunately saloon ceilings are the easy bit. It's awkward shapes in the v berth, and where saloon meets cockpit, that pose trickier choices.

How does warm air in the boat get through the layer of vinyl, 6mm of foam and a sheet of ply ? Condensation if formed when warm, moisture rich, air comes into contact with a cold surface.

It would be interesting to really insulate a boat but reconciling a proper vapour barrier with glassed-in bulkheads would take a bunch of thought and effort. I'd be curious to try but if it wasn't a totally joined-up plan it would be storing up problems.

My previous boat was a Westerly Discus, which i lived aboard for several years, all year round. The only places i had any condensation of not were some wardrobes, one where someone had removed the foam and just stuck the vinyl back and two others where the foam and vinyl had been removed and the surfaces painted white, the condensation used to literally run down the hull in these two. Everything was cured with some new foam backed vinyl.

I now live aboard a motorboat with my partner. All of the ceilings are foam backed vinyl, as are several other areas, including those around the windows. I had to replace the vinyl around the windows, the 35 year old ply was in perfect condition, apart from one small area where a leaky stanchion had caused some damage.

 

[Iliade]

A previous owner of my first boat had painted a lot of the locker interiors, the heads, and the bilges. Some of the paint was special anti-condensation paint, it didn't work. All the paint flaked off constantly, clogging the bilge pump, and didn't respond well to overpainting, or scraping and repainting with known brand paints either. I now use flowcoat for this purpose and it appears to last very well indeed.

That said, a lined boat is a more pleasant place to be and a lot dryer, so I would keep a lining of some description in the majority of the accommodation areas.

 

[ashtead]

2 quick thoughts -if looking for a westerly a discus would be personal preference - nothing wrong with Berwick or pentland BTW but provided you can live with centre cockpit just seems a better solution for smaller crews to own stern hutch and discus is newer plus many recorded trips etc on utube. On dampness invest in a Meaco dehumidifier -this also heats slightly ,dries clothes etc- might cost a few quid to keep running per month but the difference is amazing - clearly not a solution if no power but if damp is a concern way to go . We have more modern design but personally use dehumidifier. through winter remaking in water in marina even if not onboard etc.

 

[ducked]

Heating will raise the airs ability to retain moisture ... turn the heating off and where does all that excess moisture go ??

Well, hopefully it already went up the lum when you were heating, but, just in case, when one stops heating one could open additional hatches, ports or vents (assuming a canopy of some kind to deflect rainfall) since at that point one is likely to be going to bed, optionally with a hot water bottle.

 

[justanothersailboat]

(apologies for leaving a misplaced placeholder here for quite a while)

Ducked's Nissan Sunny experience sounds considerably harsher than a boat. Tough situation. At least on a boat you have room for proper bedding and, usually, the thermal mass of unfrozen water around it...

Anyway, my point: if you have condensation, it's not that you have an under insulated spot, it's that you haven't enough ventilation. That condensation has to go somewhere, insulate a cabin wall and it will settle somewhere else (and that can be behind "insulation" if the edges are not perfectly sealed... ugh... never again). You can keep it in the air by heating, but you have to keep it up... ugly losing battle. You can dehumidify it out if you have loads of power and don't like breathing. So it's the safer direction to open up more ventilation until the condensation stops bothering you, at which point you can't heat either but don't need to.

 

[Concerto]

I stripped out the forward cabin on my Westerly Fulmar and fitted new foam backed vinyl from Hawke House. Messy job, but not difficult. Look at my PowerPoint presentation on this subject.

https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/1/17/Vinyl_Headling_Concerto_PowerPoint.pdf

 

[Bouba]

Sometimes just a simple wood and paint finish can really add something to a boat cabin

 

[Marceline]

ah wow - again thanks so much for the many replies + lots to think about

 

[Marceline]

The Discus ceiling is foam backed vinyl on ply panels, very, very easy to replace. Stick with the vinyl, it looks good and doesn't condensate. The Discus is a good boat, i live on one for several years.

that's good to know - is that for the saloon ? Just as they're already removed the headlinings for the 'zig-zag' aft cabin/under the bridge deck and it looked quite a complex surface(s) to attempt to re-line

Westerly Discus – Doug Edwards Yachts

 

[justanothersailboat]

That's a potentially rather nice Discus, definitely needs some sprucing up. You can just see the ply saloon ceiling panels in the top of one or two of the pics. Those are the easy bit. The complex surfaces fore and aft (and the simpler ones on the saloon sides) are the ones that were originally covered in foam-backed vinyl glued to the fibreglass, no ply panels. I suspect the original intent of the foam was to hide the lumpiness of the back of the fibreglass...

 

[Frank Holden]

that's good to know - is that for the saloon ? Just as they're already removed the headlinings for the 'zig-zag' aft cabin/under the bridge deck and it looked quite a complex surface(s) to attempt to re-line

Westerly Discus – Doug Edwards Yachts

Those headliners look OK. I would just get the saloon and aft cabin done by an upholsterer. The locker I would do myself with 'silverbacked' EVA foam camping mat.

 

[PaulRainbow]

that's good to know - is that for the saloon ? Just as they're already removed the headlinings for the 'zig-zag' aft cabin/under the bridge deck and it looked quite a complex surface(s) to attempt to re-line

Westerly Discus – Doug Edwards Yachts

The saloon ceiling is all foam backed vinyl on ply panels. Very easy to do, just clean the old adhesive and foam off with a wire brush on an angle grinder, then roll a coat of waterproof PVA on the panels and stick new foam backed vinyl on. If i remember correctly, the aft cabin ceiling is panelled too, the rest is stuck to the fibreglass. Hawkehouse do some kits for the Discus.

If you don't do something with the wardrobes, condensation will run down the sides of the hull. I would cover the beams that run for and aft with foam backed vinyl, then make ply panels to go above and below the beams, covering them with foam backed vinyl, as per the ceiling panels.

The Discus in the ad you linked to looks generally good. especially with a relatively recent engine and sails. If i was to make an offer i'd knock some off for the vinyl, at least.

 

[Frank Holden]

Heating will raise the airs ability to retain moisture ... turn the heating off and where does all that excess moisture go ??

Out the hatch?
The deckhead has never been a problem. The benefit in insulation there is that in the tropics it simply keeps the boat cooler.
Insulating the coachroof sides and inside the hull cuts down condensation in a cold climate where I try and spend most of my time. You also need to 'double glaze' windows and hatches, a simple enough job with clingfilm and a bit of draft excluderstuff and some double sided tape. Not the prettiest but it works.

The secret do not try to convert your boat into a sauna. North Americans, in my experience, seem to want to wander around in their jocks when it is 0ºC outside. I try to live at or near ambient and am happy with a cabin temp - when I am out from under the blankets - of 12ºC. Cabin open to the outside world during the day, Eberspacher on around dinner time, off at bedtime , top board left out of companionway hatch - canvas flap over -and aft head hatch always cracked open. Heater on again when I rise in the morning and off after breakfast.
I no longer have condensation problems.

 

[ducked]

(apologies for leaving a misplaced placeholder here for quite a while)

Ducked's Nissan Sunny experience sounds considerably harsher than a boat. Tough situation. At least on a boat you have room for proper bedding and, usually, the thermal mass of unfrozen water around it...

Nope, was easy, apart from the hell-is-other-people covert/parenoid/potentially being broken into aspect, which happened multiple times in vans/trucks in London. Only got the door rattled a few times in Aberdeen.

I took passenger seats out and had it arranged to conceal a comfortable airbed as a "hollow" cargo load. Two cheap sleeping bags are more effective than one good one if you dont need backpacking lightness. Car did ice up a bit, which was awkward if I wanted to use it, but it always started. They dont make them like that anymore.

Based on that I wouldnt rule out winter overnighting on a boat in Scotland, but I already had the sliding hatch freeze solid in the yard before I returned to Taiwan. This was inconvenient. A kettle fixed it, but in deeper winter it would probably have refrozen a few times. Maybe get an alcohol spray, screen de-icer stylee.