Wayfarer or small keelboat for small budget cruising?

Loads of people trailer sail to locations abroad and sleep on their boats either under canvas or in the cabin. Netherlands, Scandinavia, Venice, Med, France etc etc. Go on your own or through an organised rally.
 
I'd agree that the easiest means of doing the cruising you outline is selling the Ruffian(big year for the class, do you race?) and buying a boat that has an inboard, plotter, dinghy, genoa furler and a tiller pilot. They are out there. You could adapt the Ruffian but an inboard alone would be a lot of work and money. There are many boats of similar size in your budget bracket that have all or some of these things, it's a matter of going through broker listings and adverts and visiting a few slime covered horrors before finding one that suits.
 
johnalison said:
For a campable day boat I’d go for something like a Hawk 20, with less ‘stuff’ than a full cruiser. There’s one on our pontoon that looks very handy, but I’ve not sailed one.
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The hawk 20 can also come with a cuddy. Seen them sailing in Poole bay in quite strong winds over the years. Never sailed one myself either but been impressed by them and how they go.
 
Never sailed a Ruffian but I cruised a dinghy round W of Scotland (and not as exposed an area as W of Ireland) to learn:

- with a wayfarer sized boat you will be very weather dependant. If other commitments (like work, family etc) get in the way you’ll possibly find very few days when you can sail and you actually want to.
- if you are talking about a long drive there, rig boat, sail, derig boat, drive home you need even more flexibility
- a day said is fun but requires more physical effort, planning, contingencies, than even a small yacht
- even on good days everything on board gets damp - camping one night in that is bearable, several would be grim
- storage / space is a pain on a dinghy - wayfarer is better than many but still needs lots of thought and rigorous daily discipline
- if the boat is too close to shore for a yachts keel it’s probably close enough for the midges
- really a wayfarer is a two person boat. I’ve sailed one solo and it’s good fun, but on your own all the problems become worse - and things like moving the boat ashore (just about possible with inflatable rollers if you unpack all the heavy kit), launching/recovery, raising and lowering the mast would require a lot of thought and effort to do on your own and likely require benign conditions.
- good luck finding someone to share your wayfarer adventures, if it needs to fit round two peoples work plans the options get more limited again. You need to find someone else who shares your desired comfort level.
- for long distance stuff you’ll still want a plotter of some sort but waterproofing and power will be harder.
- not all wayfarers are well configured for cruising. Think reefs, furling jib, outboard bracket, mainsheet config, “topping lift” - you can easily spend more than the boat setting it up for even serious day cruising.

If you decide to stick with the ruffian and are solo is a paddle board an option? Look at London Chartplotters for a cheap waterproof tablet option.
 
Thanks for all the ideas all I find it very valuable. I think I shall keep my current boat as I have come so far in the project. It can be a bit of a cost reward ratio just how much you should put into a small boat but as I've already put so much time and funds maybe a bit more won't hurt :)
The inboard diesel and furling would be great but I don't think the cost would be worth putting into the boat I have now.
But perhaps the other things like tiller pilot, dinghy etc could be of use even if I decide to sell in the future.

I might be romanticizing the open boat wayfarer experience. There is something about being exposed to the elements and really using your skill rather than equipment that seems attractive to me. But then I have never sailed on a boat like that so as people have said it may be a dissapointment.

I don't think I will buy another boat yet as I don't feel like taking on all the research and time that would involve just now. I think if I was to buy a second boat I would like it to be my final rather than just another intermediary along the way so I would have to be patient and very lucky!
 
LittleSister said:
I have cruised thousands of miles in a 23 footer, and such a boat (depending on model) is perfectly capable of doing the sort of cruising you aspire to, and getting to those places under its own steam rather than on a trailer (if you have the time available!).

You are right, in my view, to identify an inboard diesel, roller furling and tiller pilot as game changers, even though they are not 'essential'.

i am very sceptical about whether a Wayfarer or similar will meet your aspirations. You need to be a very particular sort of person to cruise extensively in such a boat. The boat itself (depending on design) may well be capable of open water voyaging, but it will very, very, very much impact on the sort of thing you can do, will want to do, and will actually do. It will be much tougher than camping; the gear you can carry will be very limited; you will have to be much more restricted by weather conditions for both comfort and safety. How will you feel about hanging about in harbour for days waiting for bad weather to clear, unable to get out of the rain and cold, or out of public view. Very few people would want to join your trips or visit you on such a boat, though you will probably meet more people as you will be much more dependent on the help of others.

I used to cruise a 16' 'dinghy-with-a-lid' centre-boarder, with a cuddy which meant I could sleep under cover, but had to put up the cockpit tent and put all any belongings in the cockpit to sleep, then when I got up I had to put all the gear and stored back in the cuddy and take down the cockpit tent to sail or cook. i had huge fun and lots of adventures in that boat, but it also really made me want a bigger, more commodious boat for more comfort and practicality, to encourage my partner and other friends to join me on trips, and to be able to realistically do cruises longer than a few days, and 24 hour plus journey legs (e.g. Cornwall to Brittany). I think something like a Leisure 17 would be a much better bet for cruising than a Wayfarer or similar if boats length was the key criterion, but for your sort of budget you can have a good 23 footer or larger.

In my opinion, a reliable inboard diesel makes all the difference to the practicality of extensive cruising. (I had previously cruised in a 22 footer with a 2 stroke petrol outboard, and that was a pain in terms of difficulty finding petrol in or near many harbours (and carrying it once you'd found it), being able to carry enough fuel aboard for longer journey legs, fuel consumption cost, prop coming out of the water in lively conditions, noise and fumes, and pitiful electric supply/charging capability.)

I carried an inflatable dinghy for use as a tender. My particular 23 footer had the benefit of a vast cockpit locker which readily held the deflated tender (and much else, and the main restriction was the size of the cockpit or foredeck for convenience inflating the tender. (I replace a larger tender with a smaller one because of that restriction, The smaller one was a bit more limited in rough/open water conditions, but much less of a pain to inflate/launch/deflate. I had an outboard for the tender, but eventually gave up carrying it around as I rarely used it. I found it overall less work to row than to faff about lifting the outboard on and off the yacht.

in my previous 22 footer I had originally towed a small rigid dinghy as a tender, but that was nuisance when berthing (especially single-handed), and a literal drag when underway. Eventually I had to cut the rigid dinghy adrift when it became swamped in rough conditions, and I couldn't recover it to bale it in those conditions without serious risk of injury to myself or damage to the yacht. I replaced it with an inflatable. I did but another rigid dinghy when i had an exposed mooring, as this was more practical for getting to and from the mooring, much better at coping with rough and windy conditions, much greater carrying capacity (both people and supplies), and avoided having to pump up and then deflate and fold the inflatable twice every time I went out in the yacht. I did, however leave the rigid dinghy behind on the mooring, and relied on the inflatable when on voyage.

Both my 23 footer and previous 22 footer had roller furling. Not having that would be a great disadvantage, in my view, both in terms of sailing handling/reefing, and avoiding the need to stow sails below, which would radically reduce the accommodation and bring water and salt below. Both had a tiller pilot, but keeping the battery charged to power it was a perennial problem on the 22 footer with an outboard

Given your budget, i would not go for a Wayfarer or similar. Neither would I buy a long shaft outboard for your current boat. I'd either spend the budget getting an inboard diesel, roller reefing and tiller pilot installed in your current boat (if you like it enough) or, more likely, buy a nice boat that already has those things and sell your current one.
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Thanks for all the info. Its interesting hearing about how you managed to take a dinghy with you on the same size boat as I have. Unfortunately I don't have a great cockpit locker so was thinking I'd keep it lashed on the foredeck or else folded below.
I've had a 2.3 m inflatable but to be honest putting it on the foredeck in the garden it seems it would take up far too much space and not be practical to get at anchor, sails etc. I have seen smaller u shaped dinghys of only 1.8m for sale . They might stow easier but I wonder would they take you in and out of an anchorage ok or not.
Did you always manually pump the dinghy. I imagine that was difficult in any kind of chop tring to find your balance? Maybe there would be potential to use a 12v electric pump?
 
Supertramp said:
Reading your original question and noting your comments on the West Coast of Ireland and remote Scottish islands leads me to say that is going to be very exciting, if not risky, in a Wayfarer. Good though they are. The simplicity and ease of beaching a Wayfarer or similar size lift keeler will be over balanced by the challenges of big seas, strong wind or adverse tide. I used to sail an Eagle 525 (Skipper 17) which was great fun but really not an offshore boat. Conversely we cruised 5 up in a Westerly 22 (hank on sails) with 10 gallons of petrol around the Inner and occasionally Outer Hebrides for several years without issue. Drying out ability is useful.

Find an outboard solution and if singlehanded, a tiller pilot too. Furling is good. A small inflatable you can deck stow and rows OK (+1 for old Avons). We towed a Redcrest everywhere, slowly! It did go airborne sometimes but always made it.

I think the boat doesn't matter as long as its sound. You'll spend a lot of time and money sorting another out and it would only be worth it if you wanted something much larger, heavier or with twin or lifting keels.
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Thanks for that I'm of the same opinion at the moment my current boat required enough blood, sweat and tears I don't want to repeat the process unless its a massive upgrade :). Interesting when you say deck stow do you mean deflated or inflated. I'd say it would be a lot easier not having to inflate and deflate every time you go ashore but the challenge is finding something suitable that would fit. I've seen 1.8m dinghys perhaps they would do the job
 
Deflating a rubber dinghy(Avon Redcrest) and either rolling up and lashing it on deck or stowing in a cockpit locker if large enough doesn't take long, even with a manual pump inflation is perhaps 10 minutes. It's a bit of a chore but infinitely better than towing the thing as they cause drag and in strong winds like to impersonate kites; we do tow it but only if not going very far and the weather is good. Electric pumps, either from a lighter socket or one of the newfangled cordless ones, are a revelation; not much quicker but you can get a brew on or do something else while the electrons do the hard work. Being lucky enough to be on a boat big enough to get away with only deflating half the dinghy is nice but certainly not necessary; it still sticks up and obscures the view forward so there are always compromises.
 
Daydream believer said:
If you have a wayfarer & stop at a tidal location to camp then the tide goes out there is no way you will be able to drag it down a beach to re launch it. If you moor it offshore you will need a dinghy. Dinghies do not need outboards. There is a good chance your wayfarer will.
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I always wondered with wayfarers if you had a few of those inflatable tubes underneath them and a sort of block and tackle system attached to an anchoring point would you be able to move them up and down the shore in remote areas?
 
I got pretty adept at blowing up the Avon on our first yacht, which was 27ft. Clip the spinny halyard to one of the side ropes, haul it up a few feet (you'll quickly work out the best height), then with the dinghy hanging just above deck height, inflate with an electric pump. Pull/push the dinghy forward until it clears the shrouds and guardwires, drop back, lower halyard, job done
We cruised with dogs who needed taken ashore twice daily, and never liked towing the dinghy, so a quick and easy routine was essential.
High winds were sometimes a problem, but generally solved by tying the painter on quite short.

Btw you'll find very few dinghies roll up as small as an Avon. They have tiny tubes, there's no slab of wood for the transom, and hypalon seems more pliable than PVC, to me.
 
DanW said:
I might be romanticizing the open boat wayfarer experience. There is something about being exposed to the elements and really using your skill rather than equipment that seems attractive to me. But then I have never sailed on a boat like that so as people have said it may be a dissapointment.
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I would think a nippy 23ft boat like a Ruffian would feel pretty close to that experience.
You could always fold down the sprayhood for that 'wind in your hair' feeling.
 
I would suggest OP sail his present boat and get experience. Not just of seamanship but of what he really likes to do. No I don't think a dinghy would provide enough comfort for what he envisages. I think an outboard engine can be quite adequate for a 23fter Electric power for a tiller pilot would be aproblem bu there is always solar and being frugal with power. Just get out there and start doing it. he would not be the first to discover reality and dreams are different things. ol'will
 
Wansworth said:
Thanks for your comments,it has a certain air about it and it’s two masted so obviously some mods have been made and the engine is smaller.Luarca is about two hours from home,somewhere we have never been so it will be an outing with a purpose🙂………side decks could be a hurdle😂
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I didn't realise the other mast was on that boat. Weird! Nice to have a steadying sail, though. Perhaps a previous owner thought there wasn't enough windage. 😁 We built a small gaff mizzen on the back of a friends overweight/under-canvassed schooner. It exacerbated the poorly balanced rig (already v heavy weather helm when enough of a blow to get her moving), but was a useful extra bit off rag in lighter airs and added a certain je ne said quoi. On this boat it would probably allow sailing with only foresail and mizzen, saving faffing about reefing the main or having the main shading you when you're trying to sunbathe.

The 11hp motor seems plenty. (My 23 footer has a Beta 13.5 and it's more than enough.) Condition is the important thing. (Was it the other Baroudeur that had an oversized but new yellow engine?)
 
DanW said:
Thanks for all the info. Its interesting hearing about how you managed to take a dinghy with you on the same size boat as I have. Unfortunately I don't have a great cockpit locker so was thinking I'd keep it lashed on the foredeck or else folded below.
I've had a 2.3 m inflatable but to be honest putting it on the foredeck in the garden it seems it would take up far too much space and not be practical to get at anchor, sails etc. I have seen smaller u shaped dinghys of only 1.8m for sale . They might stow easier but I wonder would they take you in and out of an anchorage ok or not.
Did you always manually pump the dinghy. I imagine that was difficult in any kind of chop tring to find your balance? Maybe there would be potential to use a 12v electric pump?
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There won't be space on the foredeck of a 23 footer for the inflated 2.3m dinghy, but you can deflate it, roll it up then lash it down there. You'd want to stow it below or off the yacht when you were absent to avoid it being stolen or it's life being shortened by excessive exposure to UV.

I can't remember the movement of the boat in a chop being much of a problem when inflating/deflating dinghy, but the wind catching the inflatable certainly could be frustrating. Do always tie it on with a longish line before you start pumping up or down, or lifting it over the side of the yacht!

I bought a new Plastic 1.8m round-tail inflatable - relatively cheap, small and light, but found it unsatisfactory for my needs. As well as the boat being shorter, the tubes are narrower than other inflatables, so there is very little freeboard. It was OK in a well protected harbour in moderate conditions, but I wouldn't feel safe in it in open water, or even strong winds in a harbour. The narrowness of the tubes also meant that I couldn't row properly or effectively, because the low rowlocks position meant my legs prevented me pushing down the oar handles low enough for the blades to clear the water on the return stroke. If carrying a passenger they would have to perch precariously on the narrow tube across the stern, barely out of the water - and my usual companion was a lightweight - I doubt you could realistically carry a heavy person, or at least they'd have to row and whoever was lightest perch on the stern. There was remarkably little space inside the boat, most of which was taken up by my legs. If there were 2 people you could only really carry a couple of smallish bags, one on the lap of the passenger and another behind the rower. Whenever I went away for a few days with my girlfriend, I'd have to make two (or more) trips between the shore and the boat, at both beginning and end of trip, to shift both her and stores, etc..

I traded that almost new 1.8m in for a second-hand old (1980s) Zodiac of IIRC 2.8m. Despite (because?) its age it was a much better dinghy than the little Plastimo in all respects - material strength and flexibility, construction, size, generous diameter tubes, oars, etc., except it was too big for inflating and deflating on my foredeck (or cockpit). Even on its side, once part inflated the ends would jam against or under the guard wires, forestay or something else, and inflating/deflating it on its end was just too unwieldy,espcially in any wind. (I didn't mind the fact it probably took almost twice as long to pump up as the 1.8m, because of the additional length, width and tube diameter.)

I ended up buying a new 2.3m inflatable, which I haven't used a great deal as I was berthed in a marina for a while, when it only got occasional use on trips, but has seemed the best compromise for me. I wish the material was as flexible (= packs down smaller and easier & nicer to handle) and strong as the ancient Zodiac. (I don't think modern Zodiacs have the same material, sadly.)

As I said before, for load carrying and coping with waves and weather, a rigid dinghy is much better. I forgot to mention earlier that a rigid dinghy is much easier to row, to cover distance, to make progress against (or even acrosss) tides and strong winds. If you have a mooring consider having a rigid dinghy for use there, and an inflatable on board for use on voyage.
 
On my 23 foot mashford four tonner,about 7.5 feet beam I carried a plywood rowing dinghy on the foredeck,lashedto one side there was access to the bows of course it had a jib furler
 
LittleSister said:
I didn't realise the other mast was on that boat. Weird! Nice to have a steadying sail, though. Perhaps a previous owner thought there wasn't enough windage. 😁 We built a small gaff mizzen on the back of a friends overweight/under-canvassed schooner. It exacerbated the poorly balanced rig (already v heavy weather helm when enough of a blow to get her moving), but was a useful extra bit off rag in lighter airs and added a certain je ne said quoi. On this boat it would probably allow sailing with only foresail and mizzen, saving faffing about reefing the main or having the main shading you when you're trying to sunbathe.

The 11hp motor seems plenty. (My 23 footer has a Beta 13.5 and it's more than enough.) Condition is the important thing. (Was it the other Baroudeur that had an oversized but new yellow engine?)
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No had an engine started with easy start🙄
 
DanW said:
)I always wondered with wayfarers if you had a few of those inflatable tubes underneath them and a sort of block and tackle system attached to an anchoring point would you be able to move them up and down the shore in remote areas?
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No chance. First you have to find an anchoring point. That is both ways as you have to launch & recover . Perhaps you can dig an anchor in (I see an anchor thread coming on :unsure:) So you need a shovel, - hopefully it is not hard gravel-Then lots of ft of rope. Then you only get a few feet & have to stop & move the rollers. Then the boat drops off the rollers & you have to lift it back on. A total farce. Forget that one.
 
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