Water ingress in the bilge during the week

[RabT]

I am afraid I need some guidance or pointers as to what is the best course of action.

I am having lots of fun with an old long keel that I bought back in April second hand.

The problem is that for some reason, the bilges fill up with water. I can’t seem to find the cause.
Leaving the water inlet for the engine open or closed makes no difference. Same for any other seacocks (galley, heads), rain or no rain, tides, weather, etc. The water fills up over a number of days, usually by the next weekend there is a bit of water. Cause appears random but the survey came up with a point about the cutlass bearing being a bit loose and ideally to be replaced during next winter but not an immediate concern.

Until now I could leave the boat unattended for a week and when I went over for the weekend, I would just pump the water out. It never had reached the top end of the bilge.

But yesterday, there was more water, so much so that the lids covering the bilges were out of place and there was nearly 1 inch of water in the cabin floor. I had pumped out all the water (using the cockpit pump) in the bilges on Saturday 11 June, but yesterday Sunday 19 the bilges were full and a little bit more. The only difference was that I had not been on the boat for 7 days instead of the usual 5 or 6.

Yesterday, I pumped all the water out again and left the automatic pump on.
The boat has two batteries, 2 x 110. The battery switch has the usual OFF, 1, 2 and BOTH options. Yesterday I left it in option 2 and the auto pump on for the first time.

The question is: is this something normal in other boats? How long will the battery last before is fully discharged? I am assuming I will have enough power in battery 1 to start the engine on Saturday. Do other owners leave one battery on during the week to keep the auto pump on all the time?

This is a bit of a problem as I have to go to the boat every weekend no matter what. I am lucky it’s only 1h drive away each way but still it makes it impossible to plan for anything else.

Apologies if this is a stupid question but I am brand new to boat ownership and sailing and still trying to learn about DIY, upkeep jobs, etc. (By the way any advice on upkeep books welcome).


Thanks in advance.

PS: I attach pictures of the dry bilge and the water I encountered yesterday.


Dry bilge/




Wet bilge, notice lids out of place

 

[FullCircle]

I am afraid I need some guidance or pointers as to what is the best course of action.

I am having lots of fun with an old long keel that I bought back in April second hand.

The problem is that for some reason, the bilges fill up with water. I can’t seem to find the cause.
Leaving the water inlet for the engine open or closed makes no difference. Same for any other seacocks (galley, heads), rain or no rain, tides, weather, etc. The water fills up over a number of days, usually by the next weekend there is a bit of water. Cause appears random but the survey came up with a point about the cutlass bearing being a bit loose and ideally to be replaced during next winter but not an immediate concern.

Until now I could leave the boat unattended for a week and when I went over for the weekend, I would just pump the water out. It never had reached the top end of the bilge.

But yesterday, there was more water, so much so that the lids covering the bilges were out of place and there was nearly 1 inch of water in the cabin floor. I had pumped out all the water (using the cockpit pump) in the bilges on Saturday 11 June, but yesterday Sunday 19 the bilges were full and a little bit more. The only difference was that I had not been on the boat for 7 days instead of the usual 5 or 6.

Yesterday, I pumped all the water out again and left the automatic pump on.
The boat has two batteries, 2 x 110. The battery switch has the usual OFF, 1, 2 and BOTH options. Yesterday I left it in option 2 and the auto pump on for the first time.

The question is: is this something normal in other boats? How long will the battery last before is fully discharged? I am assuming I will have enough power in battery 1 to start the engine on Saturday. Do other owners leave one battery on during the week to keep the auto pump on all the time?

This is a bit of a problem as I have to go to the boat every weekend no matter what. I am lucky it’s only 1h drive away each way but still it makes it impossible to plan for anything else.

Apologies if this is a stupid question but I am brand new to boat ownership and sailing and still trying to learn about DIY, upkeep jobs, etc. (By the way any advice on upkeep books welcome).


Thanks in advance.

PS: I attach pictures of the dry bilge and the water I encountered yesterday.

Dry bilge.

Bilge with overflowing water.

Is th boat wooden or GRP? That would have some bearing on the subject.

Also, have you a stern gland greaser, and have you screwed it up lately?

You should be able to trace that level of ingress, by drying it completely, and then putting a layer of dry talcum powder in fron t of the possible areas like the prop shaft/stern gland area, around the base of seacocks etc.

 

[bluedragon]

My old long keeler (1969 vintage) used to leak continually through the stern gland / stuffing box. You may need new packing, but if you have a greaser installed (you may well do especially if it's the original engine / prop shaft) then give this a few turns before you leave the boat. It might just do the job. I always did this after the engine was run and before we went home.

One other thought, she's not wood is she and just re-launched?

 

[RabT]

GRP

Many thanks for the quick reply. Boat is GRP.

Yes, spot on I have been "bad" at the stern gland the last couple of times, either I forgot about it or maybe I did not apply as much as required or used to do earlier in the season.

My worry with the stern gland is that it looks like there is no more left, the screw is near the bottom of the "cylinder". Something else to ask about how to change it...

 

[Twister_Ken]

No pics.

Some possible causes. But first is it saltwater or fresh?

If salt, something underwater is leaking. Prime suspect for me would be stern gland. Can you see it? Is there a drip falling from it? If so, is there a greaser you can tighten down (there'll be a narrow gauge pipe leading from the top of the stern gland to a grease reservoir, probably with a screw down adjuster to squeeze grease into the gland). Other seawater favourites - all seacocks and the hoses fixed to them, any impeller fittings, backflow through the heads or basins (but unlikely when the boat is not being sailed), engine cooling water intake. Inspect them all. Dry around them. Wrap dry kitchen towel or newspaper around them, look again after an hour. Any wet paper?

If fresh, plumbing leaks or rainwater ingress and probably rain. Too much for condensation, and your tanks will have run dry by now if leaky plumbing. Rainwater leaks are notoriously difficult to trace coz water that comes in at one place might appear at another. Nonetheless, look carefully at all windows, hatches, stanchion bases, cable glands, track fittings, cockpit drains (are they leaking into the boat), locker lids, etc.

Can't advise on battery question - you'd need to know how long the pump will run in a week, the pump power consumption and state of the domestic battery. The start battery shouldn't drain if your 1-2-both switch is in good working order.

 

[Twister_Ken]

My worry with the stern gland is that it looks like there is no more left, the screw is near the bottom of the "cylinder". Something else to ask about how to change it...

Just unscrew the top, withdraw the plunger, refill it with waterproof grease and reassemble. Easy, but messy. Keep plenty of paper towel or waste rags handy.

 

[Ubergeekian]

My worry with the stern gland is that it looks like there is no more left, the screw is near the bottom of the "cylinder". Something else to ask about how to change it...

Undo the lock nut (if any), unscrew the gland nut, rake out the old packing, insert new packing, retighten. If you are feeling brave, dry out and do it between tides. If you are feeling very brave there was a thread on doing it afloat ...

However, do make sure that it is that first. If you took that amount of water in over seven days the source ought to be visible. There are about 100,000 drops of water to a gallon, so a gallon a week is a drop every six seconds. At a wild guess you had ten gallons to get rid of, which is a couple of drops per second.

Good luck!

 

[vyv_cox]

Many thanks for the quick reply. Boat is GRP.

Yes, spot on I have been "bad" at the stern gland the last couple of times, either I forgot about it or maybe I did not apply as much as required or used to do earlier in the season.

My worry with the stern gland is that it looks like there is no more left, the screw is near the bottom of the "cylinder". Something else to ask about how to change it...

You might find the stern glands page of my website useful. There are two links near the top that will take you to pages describing repacking glands in some detail.

 

[Seajet]

Whatever it is, it's serious and requires 100% attention, following the tips given above; what if something happens to delay you visiting the boat for a while ?!

 

[oldharry]

First of all, as a newcomer to boating, DONT try to unpack the stern gland with the boat still afloat! It CAN be done, but you need to know how, and to know what to expect - i.e. to have done it before!

First of all - fresh or salt water? Taste a drop and see. I had water coming in to my boat last year - fresh, even when there was no rain. The cause? A leaking fresh water tank! Salt water means it MUST be coming through the hull somewhere, and in that quantity, I would say the stern gland is the prime suspect.

Unscrew the greaser lid, and fill it with waterproof grease - as someone elses said, its a messy job so be prepared for a clean up afterwards! Then pump plenty of grease in. If you can see the stern gland at all, you can see if its dripping. You can also release the locknut on the gland, and tighten the gland down further, but take care not to overtighten it and lock the shaft. This will often postpone the need to re-pack it. You need a big Stilson wrench and usually a contortionist to get at it!

Otherwise you have a leaking seacock somehwre, and this needs to be dealt with. As has been suggested, drying off thoroughly, then going round with some talc will soon reveal 'runs' where water is flowing down. FAiling that, dpeendent on the design of the boat, there is a keel bolt failing, and leaking - that is usually quite a major job, and involves having the boat out of the water. Encapsulated keels can leak when there has been a hard grounding which has split or worn through the GRP moulding. Again a boatyard job.

 

[ianat182]

Just to add, check the greaser and refill as described above,ensure when filled that there are no air locks(you'll see them in the transparent plastic tube as you screw the handle in),but don't overdo the greasing 1 to 1/1/2 turns will be sufficient before you go motoring and upon return when you leave the boat. Check that the large black rubber hose on the stern gland is not perished or leaking, if it is, get your boat alongside as soon as possible and renew all packings and hose ,with the proper hose for the job (see Viv's webpage for suppliers) or you will have serious leakage and sinking possible. if high and dry ashore do the Cutless bearing renewal at the same time. The packing nowadays is PTFE impregnated and comes in 5 and 6mm thicknesses,remove one of your packings and check the size you need,if a 1" shaft then use piece of 1" stainless tube for the cutting to size,by wrapping around it,stageger the cuts when repacking them into the gland. Turn the greaser 1 turn.
If the hose is sound and well secured with stainless circlips then try tightening the end nut of the stern gland until the drip stops and turn the greaser 1 turn Run the engine slowly in neutral to check for any excessive movement on the shaft.
If all OK have a trial motor around for say 15 minutes and recheck for leakage and excessive heat of the sterngland,warm is OK.

ianat182

 

[theoldsalt]

RabT

When you fill the greaser it is much easier to unscrew the cylinder not the cap. Place the cylinder into the grease tin and withdraw the piston. This will suck up the grease into the cylinder without creating air pockets and creates no mess. When the piston is fully retracted the cylinder will be full of grease and can be screwed back onto the base ready for use.
PS. use waterproof grease (white)

 

[Ubergeekian]

Whatever it is, it's serious and requires 100% attention, following the tips given above; what if something happens to delay you visiting the boat for a while ?!

My philosophy about water leaks in the boat is the same as my philosphy about hydraulic leaks on the DS. They may matter or they may not matter, but you must know where they are to decide whether they matter or not.

So, for example, I don't worry about the leak from Jumblie's water pump, because I know where it is and I have the new Speedseal o-ring in hand, and I don't worry about the drip from the DS's left suspension cylinder return line because it's low pressure and I have a new rubber boot waiting to fit. On the other hand, when Jumblie put ten inches of water in her bilge in half an hour I hunted until I found the hole in the watertrap.

 

[dancrane]

Rarely do I enjoy so much good sense, from so few contributions, on a forum. A wealth of experience, clearly expressed.

Of course, if you're very much a newcomer, with a long drive between visits, and other calls upon your time...how about just dedicating a battery to your bilge-pump, with a float switch, and a high-output solar charger for keeping the battery on form between visits?

I've heard of systems that are smart enough to text you, to let you know the bilge-pump is working, or later, when it has clicked off. A bit like the alerts sent to a mobile if a home/car/boat burglar alarm goes off. Good for peace of mind when you're at home. You'll still want the solar cell, though.

 

[rob2]

Just a thought until you get it sorted. Make sure you leave the switch on battery 2 to power the bilge pump and switch to battery 1 for engine starting. Do not select "both" unless you are sure that both batteries are charged or you will lose most of your remaining charge as battery 1 tries to recharge battery 2!

Rob.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Another thought - does she have a lifting keel/centreboard? If so, is the case damaged?

 

[agurney]

Looks very much like a new model Vega. If so, assuming you've ruled out drips from the stern gland, and all the obvious sea cocks are closed (two in the heads, and one each for sink drain and engine as standard), there is another seacock for the salt water tap on the sink which can be found on the port side at the aft end of the bilge just under the floor .. tricky to get to and easy to miss. There's also a drain at the base of the bilge in MkI Vegas, but I don't know about MK2

There's an active Vega group at http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlbinVega/, you could try asking there as well.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Just a thought until you get it sorted. Make sure you leave the switch on battery 2 to power the bilge pump and switch to battery 1 for engine starting. Do not select "both" unless you are sure that both batteries are charged or you will lose most of your remaining charge as battery 1 tries to recharge battery 2!

Been there, done that, had the jump start.

 

[RabT]

Thank you!

A big big thank you to everyone that has posted answers, tips, guidance. It is much appreciated. It is nice when people are helpful to a novice. I have so much to learn and these forums are a great resource. Yes, it is a Vega, built in 1974. Apart from this little thing with the water in the bilge I am very happy with her.

Hopefully it will be the stern gland. I did not apply any for the last couple of weekends (kind of forgot after the engine checks) and the previous weekend I only did half a turn instead of a full turn as I thought there is not a lot left in the cylinder.

Starting from this weekend I will start applying a full turn again before starting the engine, and won’t forget ever again. I note the tip about also applying a little bit as well after finishing for the day.

I am quite confident it is not any of the seacocks (left kitchen roll around them during one overnight stay and they were dry) or condensation. On Sunday I twice started the engine on battery 1 only and it was ok. Both batteries are 100mh so that should be ok for a small engine (Yanmar 1GM10). Batteries are new from 2010.

I have printed all the responses for future reference.

Thanks to everybody.

 

[vyv_cox]

Squirting grease into the stern gland does very little to seal a leak. It sounds like the stern gland needs to be taken up, or if there is no adjustment left, new packing needs to be fitted. All the info you need is on the link I posted earlier, and Ianat182's method is a good one if you need to cut new packing rings.