VP2003 Non/Poor Starting

[Sammy Lou]

Hi,

I would really appreciate some help if anyone here has any advice to offer...

Our boat has a (aprox) 1987 Volvo Penta 2003 engine. The engine was serviced at the end of last season & the boat was kept ashore through the winter & then re-launched two weeks ago. On launch the engine was very difficult to start despite being repeatedly turned over for long periods (more than 30 seconds a time). We eventually got the engine running with easy start (unfortunately the previous owner had introduced the engine to it) but it ran very rough.
Prior to launch we asked the service engineer if there was anything we need to do to ‘de-winterize’ the engine – he said not. We are disappointed with the current situation/problems as the engine was (reportedly) well serviced & the starting of the engine is now worse than it was last season. The engine would always start last year - just very reluctantly when cold.

When we reported the problem to the service engineer he said that he thought that fuel delivery was the most probable cause & that he would go to the boat & investigate. He has now reported back that he could not start the engine & is now suggesting a compression test.

Now, from reading the extensive data on this forum about these engines & the known issues with cold starting I am happy to go along with his suggestion as I also think that the cold starting problems are related to low compression (I will also be trying to eliminate intake air temp & cold start procedure - common known issues/variants).


What I would like to ask is:

(1) What is the correct specification for the compression test – should it be done twice with the engine as is & then another after the engine has been run (temperature & oil sealing) – what does adding oil tell you? How do you determine if it is the valves or rings?

(2) Has anyone been down a similar road with one of these engines? What work would you expect to do to remedy the problem? - head rebuild for the valves & if rings strip & new rings?

(3) Does any one have recommendations for a good Engineer in the Portsmouth area as I am unhappy with the current service engineer as they did not report any issues when servicing the engine even though we stated that cold starting performance was the prime reason for the service.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


Best Regards,


Paul.

 

[Ludd]

Hi,

I would really appreciate some help if anyone here has any advice to offer...

Our boat has a (aprox) 1987 Volvo Penta 2003 engine. The engine was serviced at the end of last season & the boat was kept ashore through the winter & then re-launched two weeks ago. On launch the engine was very difficult to start despite being repeatedly turned over for long periods (more than 30 seconds a time). We eventually got the engine running with easy start (unfortunately the previous owner had introduced the engine to it) but it ran very rough.
Prior to launch we asked the service engineer if there was anything we need to do to ‘de-winterize’ the engine – he said not. We are disappointed with the current situation/problems as the engine was (reportedly) well serviced & the starting of the engine is now worse than it was last season. The engine would always start last year - just very reluctantly when cold.

When we reported the problem to the service engineer he said that he thought that fuel delivery was the most probable cause & that he would go to the boat & investigate. He has now reported back that he could not start the engine & is now suggesting a compression test.

Now, from reading the extensive data on this forum about these engines & the known issues with cold starting I am happy to go along with his Rsuggestion as I also think that the cold starting problems are related to low compression (I will also be trying to eliminate intake air temp & cold start procedure - common known issues/variants).


What I would like to ask is:

(1) What is the correct specification for the compression test – should it be done twice with the engine as is & then another after the engine has been run (temperature & oil sealing) – what does adding oil tell you? How do you determine if it is the valves or rings?

(2) Has anyone been down a similar road with one of these engines? What work would you expect to do to remedy the problem? - head rebuild for the valves & if rings strip & new rings?

(3) Does any one have recommendations for a good Engineer in the Portsmouth area as I am unhappy with the current service engineer as they did not report any issues when servicing the engine even though we stated that cold starting performance was the prime reason for the service.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


Best Regards,


Paul.

Has it got pre-heaters( glowplugs) ? If so, check they're working.
I can.t see rough running being caused by lack of compression unless it was really extreme,as in broken rings or stuck valves.
I agree you need to get another engineer,there are bound to be loads round your area.

 

[Sammy Lou]

Has it got pre-heaters( glowplugs) ? If so, check they're working.
I can.t see rough running being caused by lack of compression unless it was really extreme,as in broken rings or stuck valves.
I agree you need to get another engineer,there are bound to be loads round your area.

Ludd,

No - no pre-heat on these engines. They can be dfficult to start as fuel & compression needs to be exactly right. The rough running I would put down to the engine being stood for a long time.


Thanks,

Paul.

 

[DJE]

I had similar problems with a 2002 and it was down to poor compression.

Mine often responded to a bit of engine oil in the air intake on cold days to help seal round the valves (take the air filter off and pour a teaspoon full in). In the end I had to take the head off and get the valve seats re-cut. This wasn't too hard and I didn't have to take the engine out of the boat.

One other possibility:- It could possibly be due to the cold start not engaging properly; we have to select full throttle then pull the stop chord once to set the cold start before pressing the starter.

If you want a good independent deisel engineer then contact Gary Wilson (Beaufort Marine) based in Bembridge but happy to come across and work on boats on the mainland. I'll PM his contact details.

 

[Sammy Lou]

DJE thanks for the reply - this is exactly the type of advice that I have picked up of this forum regarding the VP200X series engines & believe to be the fault with our engine

I had similar problems with a 2002 and it was down to poor compression.

Mine often responded to a bit of engine oil in the air intake on cold days to help seal round the valves (take the air filter off and pour a teaspoon full in). In the end I had to take the head off and get the valve seats re-cut. This wasn't too hard and I didn't have to take the engine out of the boat.

One other possibility:- It could possibly be due to the cold start not engaging properly; we have to select full throttle then pull the stop chord once to set the cold start before pressing the starter.

This coming weekend I'm going to investigate variants of starting method/adding oil/air intake temp to see if I can get it running & if running it improves the valve sealing.

Ultimately I think that things are heading the same way as you & the valves need reseating - the difficult bit is proving this (correct compression test) & finding someone to trust to diagnose & resolve.

Many Thanks (& for the pm)

 

[DJE]

If the head has to come off these people did a very good job on mine for about £70 a few years ago.

 

[Sammy Lou]

DJE - thanks.

Are you a mind reader by chance?

I was just sitting here wondering who & how much - spooky

 

[DJE]

DJE - thanks.

Are you a mind reader by chance?

I was just sitting here wondering who & how much - spooky

Don't quote me on the price, it was a few years ago and you've got one more cylinder than me!

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I think you are being possibly unfair to the present engineer - there is nothing they can do at service to cure bad starting, and if the engine started there isnt anything to report either.

The engine is an old one. The problem could be fuel ( for example, diesel bug developed over winter) or it could be compression. If the latter, then think carefully before embarking on a repair. Doing a cylinder head might be cheap enough ( my guess inc gaskets and engineers time is £500) but doing the bores and rings is going to be quite a bit more. And you will still be left with an old engine, tired injectors/ alternator / starter / water pump etc.

It would be feasible to repair the engine if you were interested in doing the job yourself but the fact that you have an engineer service it suggests you are not. Having a yard rebuild an engine risks developing into a big bill.

 

[Ludd]

I think you are being possibly unfair to the present engineer - there is nothing they can do at service to cure bad starting, and if the engine started there isnt anything to report either.

The engine is an old one. The problem could be fuel ( for example, diesel bug developed over winter) or it could be compression. If the latter, then think carefully before embarking on a repair. Doing a cylinder head might be cheap enough ( my guess inc gaskets and engineers time is £500) but doing the bores and rings is going to be quite a bit more. And you will still be left with an old engine, tired injectors/ alternator / starter / water pump etc.

It would be feasible to repair the engine if you were interested in doing the job yourself but the fact that you have an engineer service it suggests you are not. Having a yard rebuild an engine risks developing into a big bill.

I would agree with that.

 

[AquapartPhil]

Hi Paul,
Some good advice from everyone here, but just as an aside, it seems strange that everything was OK last season but has gone west over the winter, as with most marine engines the exhaust systems are prone to corrosion, and the 2000 series exhaust bends and joints are no exception, It could possibly be that the exhaust elbow or gasket developed a leak last season and allowed a little residual water back down over the winter which may have damaged the valves or seats giving you the compression problem
Worth Checking.

Regards,
Phil.

 

[Sammy Lou]

Bosun Higgs,

Thanks for the reply

The engine is an old one. The problem could be fuel ( for example, diesel bug developed over winter) or it could be compression. If the latter, then think carefully before embarking on a repair. Doing a cylinder head might be cheap enough ( my guess inc gaskets and engineers time is £500) but doing the bores and rings is going to be quite a bit more. And you will still be left with an old engine, tired injectors/ alternator / starter / water pump etc.

Fuel supply has been ruled out, I think you are right with your quote for the cylinder head & as I have said to the Engineer it is important that the compression test is conclusive. If is valves we will proceed & if rings then we will need to consider a replacement engine. Apart from the starting issues the engine & its ancillaries are in very good condition.


Thanks for the advise.

Regards,


Paul.

 

[Sammy Lou]

it seems strange that everything was OK last season but has gone west over the winter, as with most marine engines the exhaust systems are prone to corrosion, and the 2000 series exhaust bends and joints are no exception, It could possibly be that the exhaust elbow or gasket developed a leak last season and allowed a little residual water back down over the winter which may have damaged the valves or seats giving you the compression problem
Worth Checking.

Regards,
Phil.

Phil,

I have read about this issue previously (corrosion on rear valve seats) but had forgot - it is definately worth checking & I will ask the mechanic to check the elbow for signs of corrosion.


Thanks & Regards,


Paul

 

[MoodySabre]

For other reasons I had to have my 1988 VP2003 taken out and whilst on the bench the head was taken off last year and the valves reground etc.

The shock of all injectors working properly made the lift pump throw in the towel and this was replaced. Lift pumps are a common cause for non-starting.

This work didn't improve the cold start (it wasn't intended to) - with no pre-heaters it just takes a while to build up the necessary heat for it to fire. When very cold I was turning it over for say 10-15 seconds until it obviously wasn't going to fire and then switching to another fully charged battery. This would then start it within 4 or 5 seconds.

A good engineer should soon know if it is a fuel supply problem or lack of compression.

 

[Pete7]

Hi Paul,
Some good advice from everyone here, but just as an aside, it seems strange that everything was OK last season but has gone west over the winter

I wonder if it is something like the rings sticking after the winter lay up. Certainly our 2003 started a lot easier after a good thrashing across the channel at high revs. I suspect the PO had only used it very gently and it needed a good run.

This year ours was also difficult to start, so its going for another good run shortly. Also remember the water temp is about 6c until the last week. So the air temp in the bilges is going to be cold. In September we could be looking at a water temp of 16 - 17c.

http://www.eastbourne.gov.uk/environment/weather/sea-temperatures/

Pete

 

[Happydaze]

First of all, I don't think you can blame the guy that done the service for the starting problems without a good reason, unless he broke something.
Just a couple of things that have given me problems with starting on the VP2003. The first thing is the fuel pump, the original serviceable pump has a non return valve in the top part of the pump on the outlet bit, this valve often breaks away from the casting and renders the pump useless. If the fuel level in the tank is higher than the engine, then this does not stop it starting and running. The second is, the weakest link in the compression side is the valves get badly pitted, and need re-seating or grinding in, not a big job and may get away with re-using the same head gasket with careful removal and luck. Just make sure it is torqued up properly afterward.
If the problem has got worst over the winter, it could be the way it was winterised, in as much as water entering the back cylinder from the exhaust when it was last stopped, that would corrode the valves and rings and cylinder walls.
The VP2003 should start first turn of the key every time, even at 20 years old, if using the cold start procedure, without easy start. Good luck with getting it sorted.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

The piston rings in the bores dont touch the sides - they ride on a film of oil which is what makes the gas seal. Over the winter some of this oil will drain. If you start the winter with a poor seal due to worn / polished bores, then the drainage can make all the difference to whether the engine starts or not.

The classic way to tell whether a poor compression is rings or valves is to inject a little oil into each cylinder. However with the 2003 that isnt always easy since they have this funny bronze sleeve which the injector sits in and which can easily become a problem if the injectors are stuck in the head. Got the T shirt on that one.

If it is just the head then its very much an easy DIY job to remove it to take to the engineer for valve grinding etc.

 

[DJE]

This year ours was also difficult to start, so its going for another good run shortly. Also remember the water temp is about 6c until the last week. So the air temp in the bilges is going to be cold. In September we could be looking at a water temp of 16 - 17c.
Pete

I'd go along with that. Ours is noticeably easier to start in only slightly warmer conditions.

 

[chiefeng]

A couple of questions for the OP. How long have you had the boat, when was the last time the head was off, when was the last time the injectors were serviced, and how smokey is the exhaust when you do get the thing running?
If the answer to any of those is over 5 years, or don't know, then I sugest you have the injectors serviced and the valves ground.
The injectors have to come out for a compression test so have them serviced then.
You can get the head off yourself with a few basic tools, (the workshop manual is downloadable off the interweb). Then take the head to a local friendly mechanic for overhaul, works out a lot cheaper.
If it was a ring problem take a sample of the oil and smell it, it will have a burnt ordour, from the exhaust gases that are in it, it will also turn very black very quickly and feel gritty when you rub some between thumb and forefinger also take the dip stick out when the engine is running, if the rings are shot the crankcase pressure is higher so you will have smoke, or oil droplets squiring out the dipstick hole .
There's a lot more to changing an engine than just sticking a new one in the hole that the old one came out of, personally I would try and avoid doing that.
Hope you get it sorted.
Rgds
Bob

 

[Sammy Lou]

All,

Thank-you for your replies. They have certainly given me food for though.
We are arranging for another Engineer to look over the engine soon & I will report the finding when known.

A good engineer should soon know if it is a fuel supply problem or lack of compression.

That is what we are after - hopefully someone who can get to the root of the problem

I wonder if it is something like the rings sticking after the winter lay up. Certainly our 2003 started a lot easier after a good thrashing across the channel at high revs. I suspect the PO had only used it very gently and it needed a good run.

Certainly agree with this - At the next available opportunity I'll give the boat a good run.

Also remember the water temp is about 6c until the last week. So the air temp in the bilges is going to be cold. In September we could be looking at a water temp of 16 - 17c.

Definately a factor.

Just a couple of things that have given me problems with starting on the VP2003. The first thing is the fuel pump, the original serviceable pump has a non return valve in the top part of the pump on the outlet bit, this valve often breaks away from the casting and renders the pump useless. .

We will check this.

the weakest link in the compression side is the valves get badly pitted, and need re-seating or grinding in, not a big job and may get away with re-using the same head gasket with careful removal and luck. Just make sure it is torqued up properly afterward..

Hopefully this is what we will find - & not....

If the problem has got worst over the winter, it could be the way it was winterised, in as much as water entering the back cylinder from the exhaust when it was last stopped, that would corrode the valves and rings and cylinder walls.

If you start the winter with a poor seal due to worn / polished bores, then the drainage can make all the difference to whether the engine starts or not.

It is a good idea to get some oil in the bores (somehow) & find out if it seals the rings

A couple of questions for the OP. How long have you had the boat, when was the last time the head was off, when was the last time the injectors were serviced, and how smokey is the exhaust when you do get the thing running?
If the answer to any of those is over 5 years, or don't know, then I sugest you have the injectors serviced and the valves ground.

The answer is don't know & I suspect more than 5 Years - sound advice

If it was a ring problem take a sample of the oil and smell it, it will have a burnt ordour, from the exhaust gases that are in it, it will also turn very black very quickly and feel gritty when you rub some between thumb and forefinger also take the dip stick out when the engine is running, if the rings are shot the crankcase pressure is higher so you will have smoke, or oil droplets squiring out the dipstick hole

I haven't seen used oil from the engine as it was replaced at the last service but I will try to assertain the condition.


Once again thanks all - I'll let you know how we get on.



Regards,


Paul.