Volvopenta ECU

[jon and michie]

The charger will then put out as many amps as it can to help recharge the battery but it’s not going to have any meaningful impact vs the huge draw of the starter motor.

If anything having the charger connected whilst starting the engine probably helps as it maintains a more stable voltage for the ECU.

you've just answered @petem @s thinking everything is connected to the batteries via the negative earth and as you stated the charger will put out as many amps hence why I said it was a good possibility - Don't get me wrong if you have a better idea then please share - the more info on why these units fail the better and the chances of getting them fixed get better

 

[Portofino]

Electrically that just makes no sense whatsoever though. Yes voltage will fall when starter motor kicks in. The charger’s voltage will also be dragged down.

The charger will then put out as many amps as it can to help recharge the battery but it’s not going to have any meaningful impact vs the huge draw of the starter motor.

If anything having the charger connected whilst starting the engine probably helps as it maintains a more stable voltage for the ECU.

If “ it “ what ever it is made sense you would not in this position of VP ECU s frying .

How about this ? ……As you say starter drags the voltage / current ( what ever title you wish ) down , it fire up , the alternator excites as per normal to recover the lost what ever from the batts .
With me so far ?
How ever in certain boats with certain chargers ( not every boat Petes attempts to calm the issues ) ,said charger rapidly detected the drop and ups it game just while the engines are having there first few rpms ie the starters finished AND the alternator excites = a abnormal rush of what ever simultaneously from BOTH alternator + charger .

Some electrotwackery might detect this overload , and in attempting to bring it down actually inadvertently drops it below the level the ECU likes and kills it accidentally. Only takes a millisecond and zap its blown .

So either overloads or a rebound under load ?

Obviously if you never attempt to fire up the motors with the charger on it ain’t an issue .
Further more the components have been stress tested by the ECU manufacturers for this likely scenario ie signed off as fit for purpose ….but only after say a hand full of dual sim starts and obviously with there brand of charger one manufacturer not the same charger as the busted boats , and FWIW new fresh batteries.

So it’s slipped under the radar as far as VP ( there subby ) they are blinded to the issue , can’t understand why punters are banging on the doors .All the work re reliability was done , signed off ……albeit flawed .


Folks arn’t imaging ECU failure and the VP guys in charge of future parts inventory did match the requirements ie bought [ insert figure ] of spares to last a few decades .But they have gone through them far faster than original anticipated and the next batch(s] they kindly for punters procured .Which is what this thread is about !See post #1 .

AND the punters keep returning for more .

How many on here are on there 3 rd set ?

 

[petem]

How many on here are on there 3 rd set ?

Err, nobody but why let a bit of exaggeration spoil the truth.

 

[Portofino]

Err, nobody but why let a bit of exaggeration spoil the truth.

Plenty on there 2 nd Pete .Unless there is definitive diagnosis of why they failed or an understanding of the aetiology how they fail , then it’s a just a matter of time .

 

[kashurst]

1990's electronics were pretty robust. Fortunately cars were starting to use more electronics and design change were made. The chips in the early 1980s would fail if you looked at them the wrong way.
Any ecu can be put out of action in a few different ways. I can't be specific about the Volvo one as I haven't seen the schematics. But I use to design hardware and write software for similar industrial/commercial stuff back in the 1990s. On the KAD 44/300 Volvo have a double relay system (double pole) to electrically isolate the ECU from the engine when it is off. (the 12V AND the 0V supply are disconnected) If the batteries are past their best this in theory can create a situation where the relays are flickering on and off on start up, I never worked out why Volvo use this double pole system. If that happens then the microprocessor or memories could get fried by the intemittent, flickering supply voltage. Volvo used a pair of diodes on the '44 ECU supply to reduce the effects of that and on the '300 used a voltage regulator that gives out 8 - 12 V regardless as long as the incoming voltage is between 3 and 15V DC.
The other issue is we never know what's actually wrong with the ecus when they stop working. It could be a dead microprocessor or just one of the high power switching output transistors. The main connectors corrode if not looked after and again as well as a variety of interesting engine behaviours, can make the electrical supply to the microprocessor intermittent especially when the supercharger is cutting in and out - lot more current, so potential for bigger voltage spikes. Depending on how Volvo/ecu designer manage the flash memory, this could cause the microprocessor to crash, start running effectively nonsense code and overwrite the flash memory. There are ways to make that event extremely unlikely but not impossible. Finally these ecus are more than 20 years old and spend their lives bolted to a hot vibrating engine - I never thought that was a good idea either. I suspect sometimes the solder joints just fail internally. And the electrolytic capacitors performance that help stabilise the internal voltages, reduce with time as well

In summary to keep an ECU happy, make sure all the contacts are in very good condition, keep your batteries healthy and never ever remove/disconnect any of the ECU or fuel injection pump connectors while the engine is connected to the batteries.
Especially important: Never ever disconnect/reconnect anything while it is running either.

 

[jakew009]

If “ it “ what ever it is made sense you would not in this position of VP ECU s frying .

Or it could just be a random component that fails (such as a capacitor in a power supply circuit).

How about this ? ……As you say starter drags the voltage / current ( what ever title you wish ) down ,

The voltage will go down as the current increases.

it fire up , the alternator excites as per normal to recover the lost what ever from the batts .
With me so far ?

Yes, energy is the term you are looking for.

How ever in certain boats with certain chargers ( not every boat Petes attempts to calm the issues ) ,said charger rapidly detected the drop and ups it game

The charger cannot detect the drop and up it's game. The only way more current will flow from the charger is if something draws more current (such as the starter motor or the discharged battery)

just while the engines are having there first few rpms ie the starters finished AND the alternator excites = a abnormal rush of what ever simultaneously from BOTH alternator + charger .

Again, it cannot be an 'abnormal rush of whatever'. The charger and the alternator will both contribute to the battery's current draw.

Some electrotwackery might detect this overload , and in attempting to bring it down actually inadvertently drops it below the level the ECU likes and kills it accidentally. Only takes a millisecond and zap its blown .

For a start there is no overload, just a battery discharged by a couple of percent drawing some current from the charge sources. What 'electrotwackery' is going to detect the overload? And how is it going to 'bring it down'?

I kind of agree that a large voltage droop could potentially damage the ECU, but having the mains charger connected during the start would help avoid this not make it worse.

So either overloads or a rebound under load ?

Now you've really lost me. Why would there be a rebound under load? The battery will act as a current sink that will soak up any voltage spikes. You are much more likely to get a voltage spike from the alternator than the mains charger anyway.

Obviously if you never attempt to fire up the motors with the charger on it ain’t an issue .

Of course it's not an issue if you fire up the motors with the charger on either.

Further more the components have been stress tested by the ECU manufacturers for this likely scenario ie signed off as fit for purpose ….

Agree. Automotive electronic kit has to go through lots of testing to make sure it can handle big voltage spikes / droops for this exact reason. Normally low voltage will affect things like fuel pumps, relays or injectors more than PCB level circuits.

but only after say a hand full of dual sim starts and obviously with there brand of charger one manufacturer not the same charger as the busted boats , and FWIW new fresh batteries.

It will have been tested under all sorts of extreme conditions, voltage spikes north of 50V etc.

So it’s slipped under the radar as far as VP ( there subby ) they are blinded to the issue , can’t understand why punters are banging on the doors .All the work re reliability was done , signed off ……albeit flawed .

You have zero proof of that. It could be as simple as "a component on the PCB occasionally fails due to vibration / heat / old age". You need to remember that there are 10s of thousands of ECUs still working fine that have not been replaced.

Folks arn’t imaging ECU failure and the VP guys in charge of future parts inventory did match the requirements ie bought [ insert figure ] of spares to last a few decades .But they have gone through them far faster than original anticipated and the next batch(s] they kindly for punters procured .Which is what this thread is about !See post #1 .

There is no way they would have ordered all the spares they forecast needing 20 years ago. Surely even you can see that's a ridiculous statement.

They will have the same ECU in many different engines and when the PCB was designed it will have been designed with very (very) long supply dates. As they need to order further batches of PCBs there will be certain components that become hard to obtain. Some components are a relatively simple swap and does not require recertification / engineering sign off. Other components will be much more complicated to find replacements for.

Covid meant that many ancient components that had been available in dribs and drabs for years suddenly become unavailable because they were hoovered up by other people trying to build stuff. Given the timelines involved with the Volvo ECU saga I'd say it's highly likely Volvo were caught off guard suddenly being unable to obtain parts to build another batch.

It's also quite normal for a manufacturer to replace an old, obsolete part such as an ECU with an alternative taken from a modern engine, and then tweak the software to make it work. This helps them reduce the number of parts they need to keep in stock, lower costs and hopefully benefit from reliability improvements they've made over the years. For all we know Volvo have done this (potentially multiple times).

AND the punters keep returning for more .

If the situation was anywhere near as bad as you say, there would be thousands of boats parked up in marinas waiting for new ECUs. That simply isn't the case.

How many on here are on there 3 rd set ?

No one?

 

[petem]

you've just answered @petem @s thinking everything is connected to the batteries via the negative earth and as you stated the charger will put out as many amps hence why I said it was a good possibility - Don't get me wrong if you have a better idea then please share - the more info on why these units fail the better and the chances of getting them fixed get better

I suspect that shorepower connection was a red herring and what was more of an issue was a duff battery and duff charger giving the ECU insufficient power and corrupting the EEPROM flashing. I suspect that in my case a simple reflash would have cured the issue however this was pre covid and before VP started offering the service.

 

[oldgit]

These failures on encapsulated PCBs started to surface years long before Covid was even a bad idea in a petri dish lurking in the back of fridge somewhere in Wuhan.
A decade later when the bad publicity might start to affect VPs reputation there was a sudden Damascene conversion and the impossible ( no chips no software needs complete reworking etc ) became possible.
At least VP have finally decided to deal with this, their reputation for continuing to supply spares for mechanical bits and pieces was legendary.

 

[petem]

Plenty on there 2 nd Pete .Unless there is definitive diagnosis of why they failed or an understanding of the aetiology how they fail , then it’s a just a matter of time .

Ah, you're backpedalling now! You said "third set" which implies that an owner has had four ECU's fail.

 

[petem]

These failures on encapsulated PCBs started to surface years long before Covid was even a bad idea in a petri dish lurking in the back of fridge somewhere in Wuhan.
A decade later when the bad publicity might start to affect VPs reputation there was a sudden Damascene conversion and the impossible ( no chips no software needs complete reworking etc ) became possible.
At least VP have finally decided to deal with this, their reputation for continuing to supply spares for mechanical bits and pieces was legendary.

So you're saying that there was a whole decade during which these ECU's were unavailable?

The thing is, these engines (KAD44/300/TAMD73/4/5) sold in large numbers so there will always "safety in numbers". If the original ECU's cannot be remanufactured then there are alternative ECU's now that would work (it's just the programming and connectors that need to be developed). Failing that, they can be converted back to pure mechanical blocks. And failing that, as engines are scrapped there will be second hand ECU's entering the market.

 

[jon and michie]

Or send it to this chap - REPAIR REPARASJON VOLVO PENTA ECU TAMD 72-73 – Norsk Motorkompani

 

[Portofino]

Ah, you're backpedalling now! You said "third set" which implies that an owner has had four ECU's fail.

Crikey Pete .First is the OEM , second the replacement in bad luck kinda way , third the one after that .
After realisation it’s a common issue unfixed , un modded as time goes by .This is because it’s a multi layer failure part as Kashurts has pointed out .

Poor designed and execution and poor back up from VP .Glad I got out .

But it’s not just this ECU thingy bad as it is .You can tell , well I can tell just looking at VP motors compared to competitors they are built corner cutting or with bean counters calling the shots in engineering head banging sessions at HQ .
There is even a a Facebook site as you know dedicated to VP woes .

BTW I notice you are having a gauge issue on another thread , I had similar and it turned out the tech told me after a parts fest “ the wiring looms deteriorate over time “ something to do with heat degradation changing the resistance values .


Which ever way you turn and twist the words of wisdom ( ) and previous experience shared for the benefit of others on here and in the future , this it’s a turd polishing exercise the maintenance of aged VP motors

 

[julians]

I had similar and it turned out the tech told me after a parts fest “ the wiring looms deteriorate over time “ something to do with heat degradation changing the resistance values .

if I had a fiver every time some repair guy (or sales guy) has told me some total load of b*llocks I'd be a rich man.

 

[petem]

Crikey Pete .First is the OEM , second the replacement in bad luck kinda way , third the one after that .
After realisation it’s a common issue unfixed , un modded as time goes by .This is because it’s a multi layer failure part as Kashurts has pointed out .

Poor designed and execution and poor back up from VP .Glad I got out .

But it’s not just this ECU thingy bad as it is .You can tell , well I can tell just looking at VP motors compared to competitors they are built corner cutting or with bean counters calling the shots in engineering head banging sessions at HQ .
There is even a a Facebook site as you know dedicated to VP woes .

BTW I notice you are having a gauge issue on another thread , I had similar and it turned out the tech told me after a parts fest “ the wiring looms deteriorate over time “ something to do with heat degradation changing the resistance values .


Which ever way you turn and twist the words of wisdom ( ) and previous experience shared for the benefit of others on here and in the future , this it’s a turd polishing exercise the maintenance of aged VP motors

As I said, nobody will be on their third set of ECU's.

My gauge won't be a loom issue, that's just more ridiculous speculation on your part.

 

[volvopaul]

Sone great answers and some very wild assumptions to failure and the lack of supply .
NIRA automotive made the original ECU , I believe they stopped making them many years ago , I heard it was a real battle to get production going again because of the age of components.
I also heard that they never ran out of stock just the will to supply .
I’m not sure NIRA make them now for Volvo , it’s still a 4 week wait .

 

[jon and michie]

Sone great answers and some very wild assumptions to failure and the lack of supply .
NIRA automotive made the original ECU , I believe they stopped making them many years ago , I heard it was a real battle to get production going again because of the age of components.
I also heard that they never ran out of stock just the will to supply .
I’m not sure NIRA make them now for Volvo , it’s still a 4 week wait .

@volvopaul - in your opinion what do you think causes these units to fail ? you must have changed a few out by now

 

[Portofino]

As I said, nobody will be on their third set of ECU's.

My gauge won't be a loom issue, that's just more ridiculous speculation on your part.

Never said it was just saying we had the sender + gauge swapped out as per normal diagnostic phaffing and that was the result .Hope your fix is easier .Just passing on experience.It’s feeling deja vu .

 

[petem]

Sone great answers and some very wild assumptions to failure and the lack of supply .
NIRA automotive made the original ECU , I believe they stopped making them many years ago , I heard it was a real battle to get production going again because of the age of components.
I also heard that they never ran out of stock just the will to supply .
I’m not sure NIRA make them now for Volvo , it’s still a 4 week wait .

All I can say is that ECU failure occurred at the same time that I had battery issues.

 

[petem]

Guess what they are out of stock again with a minimum 4 week lead time .

If you can give me the part number then I can check with VP (I took over the email conversation with VP from Mike).

 

[volvopaul]

If you can give me the part number then I can check with VP (I took over the email conversation with VP from Mike).

No need thanks my dealer is on the ball with supply dates .