Volvo vs Beta

[LeonF]

For reasons that are fascinating that I may post later on, I am having to re engine and wonder what you people think about a Volvo vs a Beta ? I had a Volvo 2010, so would now be looking at a Volvo D1-13 or a Beta 14. Long keel heavy displacement, 3 tons, 8 metres.
Thanks

 

[pvb]

I guess, in simplistic terms, the Beta is much cheaper, but the Volvo has better aftersales support.

 

[Tranona]

A D1 13 will be a straight swap as pretty sure the footprint is the same as the 2010. You may have to change the prop as the maximum revs is 3200 compared with 3600 - although it may have a lower reduction ratio to keep the shaft revs the same. The Beta/Nanni is 3600 but comes with either a 2:1 or a 2.6:1 which may be different from your 2010. The Kubota based engines are physically smaller than the Volvo so may need changes to fit.

Although list prices for the Kubota based engines may be lower, you may well find a trade in deal with Volvo and the possibly lower installation costs will bring the overall costs to about the same.

 

[Eyore]

Volvo dearer, Volvo parts dearer, Volvo bigger.
Beta cheaper,Beta parts cheaper, Beta physically smaller, Beta thoroughly reliable Japanese technology and British Company. No Contest.

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

The Beta/Nanni is 3600 but comes with either a 2:1 or a 2.6:1 which may be different from your 2010.

I believe that the Beta 10 has max 3600 RPM the 14 I think has approx 4500 RPM Otherwise it is the same engine. If you buy a 10 and increase the revs you have a 14. The original difference in the Kubota engine was that it was rated at 10 HP for continuous use and 14 HP for intermittent. i.e. the difference between a dumper truck and a generator.

 

[Tranona]

The Beta/Nanni is 3600 but comes with either a 2:1 or a 2.6:1 which may be different from your 2010.

I believe that the Beta 10 has max 3600 RPM the 14 I think has approx 4500 RPM Otherwise it is the same engine. If you buy a 10 and increase the revs you have a 14. The original difference in the Kubota engine was that it was rated at 10 HP for continuous use and 14 HP for intermittent. i.e. the difference between a dumper truck and a generator.

Right principle, wrong figures. The 10 is governed to 3000 and the 14 to 3600 (for the extra 3+hp). Some other minor differences in spec as well.

 

[LeonF]

Thanks guys. The D1-13 is not a straight swap, aft to forward the feet are wider apart and in a friends identical boat he had to adapt the rear feet to fit by substituting the cheaper alloy feet for angled iron. He also needed to adapt the bearers. Also Volvo do not allow self service, it voids the warranty, as does installation by other than a Volvo dealer, who must commission the engine and carry out the first service. I had a Beta 18 on a Sigma 33 previously, and found the support superb, they would spend hours helping me, a novice with my first inboard, talking me through simple tasks. A Volvo dealer told me scathingly that Beta were good until a few years went by then they rattled like anything. Of course he would. Just wondered about longevity. Trade in discounts etc don't come into play as it's a complex situation, so just considering overall engine quality. I haven't met any disgruntled Beta owners who wished they'd chosen otherwise, but I know some of you are very experienced and knowledgeable.

 

[LeonF]

I guess, in simplistic terms, the Beta is much cheaper, but the Volvo has better aftersales support.

There isn't that much in the price PVB, maybe a grand just, but Volvo spares are mouth wateringly priced.

 

[sailorman]

Thanks guys. The D1-13 is not a straight swap, aft to forward the feet are wider apart and in a friends identical boat he had to adapt the rear feet to fit by substituting the cheaper alloy feet for angled iron. He also needed to adapt the bearers. Also Volvo do not allow self service, it voids the warranty, as does installation by other than a Volvo dealer, who must commission the engine and carry out the first service. I had a Beta 18 on a Sigma 33 previously, and found the support superb, they would spend hours helping me, a novice with my first inboard, talking me through simple tasks. A Volvo dealer told me scathingly that Beta were good until a few years went by then they rattled like anything. Of course he would. Just wondered about longevity. Trade in discounts etc don't come into play as it's a complex situation, so just considering overall engine quality. I haven't met any disgruntled Beta owners who wished they'd chosen otherwise, but I know some off you are very experienced and knowledgeable.

Small Kubota engines in plant ( diggers ect ) are good for 6000 + hrs with normal servicing

 

[LeonF]

Right principle, wrong figures. The 10 is governed to 3000 and the 14 to 3600 (for the extra 3+hp). Some other minor differences in spec as well.

I'm not that technical, any chance of an explanation in layman's terms ? Better thrust in close quarter manoeuvres ? For a slog to windward my boat is always more comfortable sailing, or at least motor sailing. The ability to push through choppy water would be more useful.

 

[ghostlymoron]

Reading previous threads would suggest that Beta/Nanni are well thought of. I think your hopes of a new lump just slotting in are optimistic. As for longevity - my volvo is forty years old but spares, if available, are pricey. Once you're on the hook, they will squeeze you. Kubota spares are available worldwide at reasonable price so all you need is to carry plenty of 'marinisation' spares.

 

[pvb]

There isn't that much in the price PVB, maybe a grand just, but Volvo spares are mouth wateringly priced.

I've seen the Beta14 at £3650, so you must have a good quote for the Volvo. Some Volvo parts are expensive, regular service parts are averagely-priced. The important thing is that the Volvo dealer network is superb, with loads of parts in stock throughout the world. And they continue to provide parts for older engines for many years. There's a cost to that, and it's reflected in their pricing.

 

[robertj]

i'm not quit sure but an engineer I know mentioned that the new volvos were mitsubishi engines or perkins

 

[pvb]

Also Volvo do not allow self service, it voids the warranty, as does installation by other than a Volvo dealer, who must commission the engine and carry out the first service.

It would be worth double-checking. As far as I'm aware, you can install the engine yourself, but it certainly has to be checked and commissioned by a VP dealer. You have to have the first service (within 6 months or 50 hours running) done by a VP dealer to keep the first year's warranty. VP dealers will probably say that if they do a service at 1 year old, they'll extend the warranty for a second year, but I think EU law technically gives a 2-year warranty anyway. As for ordinary oil/filter changes, you can do that yourself without affecting the warranty (although if you want to avoid any potential arguments, just buy the oil and filter from a VP dealer and keep the receipt).

 

[LeonF]

i'm not quit sure but an engineer I know mentioned that the new volvos were mitsubishi engines or perkins

They are based on a Japanese tractor engine, but neither of those, I did read what it was but cannot recall

 

[tillergirl]

It would be worth double-checking. As far as I'm aware, you can install the engine yourself, but it certainly has to be checked and commissioned by a VP dealer. You have to have the first service (within 6 months or 50 hours running) done by a VP dealer to keep the first year's warranty. VP dealers will probably say that if they do a service at 1 year old, they'll extend the warranty for a second year, but I think EU law technically gives a 2-year warranty anyway. As for ordinary oil/filter changes, you can do that yourself without affecting the warranty (although if you want to avoid any potential arguments, just buy the oil and filter from a VP dealer and keep the receipt).

I think that's correct. It may not be important to you but for me, I didn't like the requirement on the Beta to check the Anode regularly (Beta say a 6 months check may be necessary) and remove and clean the heat exchanger annually.

 

[pvb]

They are based on a Japanese tractor engine, but neither of those, I did read what it was but cannot recall

I believe the engine is made by IHI Shibaura, who had a joint venture with Perkins. Probably made in Japan, although they've also established a presence in China.

 

[macd]

I can't comment from first hand experience of Volvos, not having owned one for aeons, but I've bought and installed two Betas (for different boats). These are the main reasons, in no particular order:
1. The company has an excellent reputation for after-sales service.
2. The engines are highly spec'able: different alternators, exhaust risers, polyvee belt options etc. (Polyvees are now standard on much of the range, anyway).
3. 'Special feet' service, at a sensible price. If your old bearers are anywhere near a Beta's dimensions, the engine can probably be made to drop straight in.
4. Good access to regular service points on most engines. Not much is tucked away, much less fouled by something else.
5. Spares costs are reasonable (very reasonable for OE Kubota bits).
6. Basically Japanese, so not made by idiots who don't understand quality control.
7. No probs with self-install and self-service.
8. They're red. The missus likes red.

 

[LeonF]

I think that's correct. It may not be important to you but for me, I didn't like the requirement on the Beta to check the Anode regularly (Beta say a 6 months check may be necessary) and remove and clean the heat exchanger annually.

I didn't have an anode on the Volvo 2010 and often wondered why some engines have them and some don't ? The heat exchanger removal on a Beta looks much simpler that it was on my 2010, and I wouldn't think it was a bad suggestion to clean it annually. It was a very simple task to replace the anode on my Beta 18 when I had one. What I'm more interested in is... are the Volvos better built than the Betas ? If so in what way ?. They are certainly heavier engines.

 

[LeonF]

I can't comment from first hand experience of Volvos, not having owned one for aeons, but I've bought and installed two Betas (for different boats). These are the main reasons, in no particular order:
1. The company has an excellent reputation for after-sales service.
2. The engines are highly spec'able: different alternators, exhaust risers, polyvee belt options etc. (Polyvees are now standard on much of the range, anyway).
3. 'Special feet' service, at a sensible price. If your old bearers are anywhere near a Beta's dimensions, the engine can probably be made to drop straight in.
4. Good access to regular service points on most engines. Not much is tucked away, much less fouled by something else.
5. Spares costs are reasonable (very reasonable for OE Kubota bits).
6. Basically Japanese, so not made by idiots who don't understand quality control.
7. No probs with self-install and self-service.
8. They're red. The missus likes red.

I like red too. The built in oil change pump is a real bonus too.