Volvo d4 225 or Volvo penta 230hp

[Alwills]

Hi all,
First post on the forum and I was wondering which is the better engine option to go with in an Beneteau Antares series 9.
I know the d4 is the newer engine but I was thinking more of which is the most reliable and which is the better engine for better fuel economy.
I really like the boat but a little unsure of which engine to go for?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Alun..

 

[Spi D]

If you by 230 mean KAD42/43 I'd take the D4.

Next generation in all respects, even on fuel efficiency.

 

[neale]

If you by 230 mean KAD42/43 I'd take the D4.

Next generation in all respects, even on fuel efficiency.

Very true, but the KADs are simpler so less to go wrong.

 

[Firefly625]

Very true, but the KADs are simpler so less to go wrong.

give me simple in a marine environment any day.

 

[ulyden]

If you compare KAD43 against D4 225 the D4 have the bests performance. About 10% less fuel consumption i guess. D4 is 20% heavier.Less smoke.

Disadvantage D4 is parent bore solution. If you get water corrosion or a cylinder failure volvo don't recommend cylinder repair.

The KAD have wet liners and can be easily replaced.

The D4 have electronics control and demand i high skilled person with a diag tool to trouble shoot the electronics.

The KAD 43 have nothing just a solenoid for the fuel and at relay unit for the compressor.

The D4 have a lot of possibilities to protect engine from destroying itself.

The kad engine the skipper have to protect.

KAD engine have cheaper nozzles on the D4 the whole fuel valve must be replaced.

I'm not sure but i think the D4 have pressurised nozzle tips. Than means leakage might burn the piston.

There have been at lot of nozzles broken where i live. This might be caused by use of Marine Gas oil (MGO) instead of autodiesel.

I like 6 syl engines but fuel consumtion is higher.

I go for the KAD43 but its dependent on your priority.

Low cost/low skilled maintenance/repair KAD
Low fuel consumption/good ideling performance D4

Just remember the KAD can cruse at 95% speed D4 at 90% speed.

 

[David of Essex]

If you compare KAD43 against D4 225 the D4 have the bests performance. About 10% less fuel consumption i guess. D4 is 20% heavier.Less smoke.

Disadvantage D4 is parent bore solution. If you get water corrosion or a cylinder failure volvo don't recommend cylinder repair.

The KAD have wet liners and can be easily replaced.

The D4 have electronics control and demand i high skilled person with a diag tool to trouble shoot the electronics.

The KAD 43 have nothing just a solenoid for the fuel and at relay unit for the compressor.

The D4 have a lot of possibilities to protect engine from destroying itself.

The kad engine the skipper have to protect.

KAD engine have cheaper nozzles on the D4 the whole fuel valve must be replaced.

I'm not sure but i think the D4 have pressurised nozzle tips. Than means leakage might burn the piston.

There have been at lot of nozzles broken where i live. This might be caused by use of Marine Gas oil (MGO) instead of autodiesel.

I like 6 syl engines but fuel consumtion is higher.

I go for the KAD43 but its dependent on your priority.

Low cost/low skilled maintenance/repair KAD
Low fuel consumption/good ideling performance D4

Just remember the KAD can cruse at 95% speed D4 at 90% speed.

Good post thank you
David

 

[Alwills]

Thanks for the quick and very in depth replies,in my ignorance I am not sure if there are kad engines fitted to the beneteau Antares 9.
This is something I will have to find out,but if they are fitted it seems this may be the engine type for me.
Thanks again.
Alun.

 

[Alwills]

Thanks for the replies,very good info.
Cheers
Alun..

 

[bluejasper2]

Hi all,
First post on the forum and I was wondering which is the better engine option to go with in an Beneteau Antares series 9.
I know the d4 is the newer engine but I was thinking more of which is the most reliable and which is the better engine for better fuel economy.
I really like the boat but a little unsure of which engine to go for?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Alun..

hi alun i have bene 9 d4 260 my pal has one with kad his is smokey noisier
and rattlier compared to d4 also with d4 you have plenty of access all around
engine bay but with the kad its tightat front and rear to access the impellor
you have to do it through the small hatch in stairs as for fuel economy d4 is slightly better d4 also has no whiney suppercharger if you have the choice go for 260 goes better with friends on board great sea boat been out in some
horrible weather no problems

 

[Latestarter1]

If you compare KAD43 against D4 225 the D4 have the bests performance. About 10% less fuel consumption i guess. D4 is 20% heavier.Less smoke.

Disadvantage D4 is parent bore solution. If you get water corrosion or a cylinder failure volvo don't recommend cylinder repair.

The KAD have wet liners and can be easily replaced.

The D4 have electronics control and demand i high skilled person with a diag tool to trouble shoot the electronics.

The KAD 43 have nothing just a solenoid for the fuel and at relay unit for the compressor.

The D4 have a lot of possibilities to protect engine from destroying itself.

The kad engine the skipper have to protect.

KAD engine have cheaper nozzles on the D4 the whole fuel valve must be replaced.

I'm not sure but i think the D4 have pressurised nozzle tips. Than means leakage might burn the piston.

There have been at lot of nozzles broken where i live. This might be caused by use of Marine Gas oil (MGO) instead of autodiesel.

I like 6 syl engines but fuel consumtion is higher.

I go for the KAD43 but its dependent on your priority.

Low cost/low skilled maintenance/repair KAD
Low fuel consumption/good ideling performance D4

Just remember the KAD can cruse at 95% speed D4 at 90% speed.

"]If you compare KAD43 against D4 225 the D4 have the bests performance. About 10% less fuel consumption i guess. D4 is 20% heavier.Less smoke."

When you look at the power/torque curves shape of D4 would indicate that D4 has vastly better out of the hole performance.......Adavantage D4.

10% better fuel consumption.......Advantage D4.

20% weight penalty?? KAD 43 bobtail 534 kg D4 bobtail 546 kg, just a smidge over 2% in my book. A draw.

No smoke Vs smoke, therefore more sociable engine as well as being 2 dBa less noisy........Advantage D4

"Disadvantage D4 is parent bore solution. If you get water corrosion or a cylinder failure volvo don't recommend cylinder repair.

The KAD have wet liners and can be easily replaced."

Parent bore is appropriate and more reliable technology for Mid Range engines.Perfectly true cylinder for excellent lube oil control and more robust cylinder block. No liner seals to leak and no potential cavitation issues making design insensitive to coolant quality. D4 has far GREATER durability potential than KAD43.

If VP had a service oversize piston it would be advantage D4.

"The D4 have electronics control and demand i high skilled person with a diag tool to trouble shoot the electronics.

The KAD 43 have nothing just a solenoid for the fuel and at relay unit for the compressor.

The D4 have a lot of possibilities to protect engine from destroying itself.

The kad engine the skipper have to protect."

Electronics actually speed up diagnostic process and electronic control of diesel engines has proven to be robust technology. Benifits of in built engine protection deserve more credit.

Plenty of historic posts regarding reliability of whacky KAD compound air handling arrangement. Typical engineers solution looking for a problem.

Advantage D4.

"KAD engine have cheaper nozzles on the D4 the whole fuel valve must be replaced.

I'm not sure but i think the D4 have pressurised nozzle tips. Than means leakage might burn the piston."

VP guys will have the correct answer here, but I suspect KAD has an injector change out procedure based on engine hours. Common rail injectors have NO defined service life. Bosch ECU constantly monitors individual injector performance and as injector performance changes over time, potential loss of performance of one injector can be balanced (within set limits) by the other injectors. A common rail engine therefore offers consistant performance over it's life time.

Due to the uptake of common rail engines service costs of PLD injectors has gone up and common rail injectors gone down, typically £80 for PLI injector and £100 for common rail.

Contaminated fuel damages both PLI and common rail injectors. Engine damage just happens quicker on common rail engines. Certain that patent on the Cummins unintended fuelling algorithim which signals injector nozzle failure and triggers engine protection will soon run out, Volvo may already have the feature set.

Advantage D4

"There have been at lot of nozzles broken where i live. This might be caused by use of Marine Gas oil (MGO) instead of autodiesel."

No relevance whatsoever in our marine market.

" I like 6 syl engines but fuel consumtion is higher."

D4 is a far better packaged engine and four cylinders with Lanchester shaft offers similar levels of refinement to a six pot. Suspect fuel consumption penalty of KAD is more to do with supercharger parasitics than pumping losses of extra two cylinders.

Advantage D4

"I go for the KAD43 but its dependent on your priority.

Low cost/low skilled maintenance/repair KAD
Low fuel consumption/good ideling performance D4"

What would be my priority?.........D4 every time. Volvo 40 Series engines have always been considered a bit of a joke motor from a design standpoint. A short stroke IDI engine converted during its lifetime to DI and a poorly designed four valve cylinder head. Vs an bang up to date clean sheet of paper design from people who KNOW what makes a decent engine (Deutz).

Spannerman and Volvo Paul have both stated that D Series are far less time consuming and simpler to service than 40 Series.

So what does that leave us with................Clear advantage D4

 

[ulyden]

"]If you compare KAD43 against D4 225 the D4 have the bests performance. About 10% less fuel consumption i guess. D4 is 20% heavier.Less smoke."


So what does that leave us with................Clear advantage D4

Well LT

I was on a sea trial some weeks ago. The tecnical director was omboard.

He had lots of CR engines in operation. Fast passenger boats. Tousensds of hours experiense with CR. He had also a 30f pleasure boat. What did he go for? KAD43. He was soo pleased!

He had eaved tried to prevent a mate to buy a D3 instead of a KAD32.
His mate did not listen. Only problems.

About weigt i was comparing weigth with outdrive. Did not find the bobtail weigth on KAD. But with outdrive the total weight is 20% more in D4.

NOzzles. You have compare real cost. The D4 is not a automotive engine!
You have to go to VP or Bosch. An exh injector cost about 900 euro.

http://www.marinepartseurope.com/en/volvo-penta-explodedview-7746200-23-6593.aspx

The KAD engine the cost is lower! Exch injektor 1500 euro

http://www.marinepartseurope.com/en/volvo-penta-explodedview-7738870-23-3423.aspx

Most owners change injektors when engine are smoking or misfiering. Seems that that happeds more often on D4 were I live. Most engine have exanged injectors before 700h

The KAD compressor is turned off above 3000revs. And it can cruse at 95% speed! 3600rpm (D4 3150rpm with 3500rpm max.)

Some D4 also have compressor. Remember You have to have a D4 260 to have the same crusing speed as a KAD43. If the KAD43 have 230hp the maximum crusing speed is 3600. This correspond to (36/38)^2.7= 86% load or 198hp

The D4 can cruse with 10% speed reduction than means (3150/3500)^2.7= 75.2% load or 169hp on a 225 or 195hp on a D4 260


Locking at the torque/power curve. At 60% speed the KAD43 have 120kw the D4 225 have more or less the same 110kw


And VP are not suplying overzized pistons!

I have never seen a clean diesel engine!

Full of NOx and partikles! You neeed SCR EGR and DPF to overcome this. Boat engine dont have this. They are all dirty!

 

[David2452]

I went through this exact (same boat same engine choice) scenario when we bought our boat new, it was just at the time the D4 was being introduced to the A9, tried both, looked at all the numbers and despite having to wait a bit for build and paying more, opted for the D4 225. After 6 years of ownership with plenty of hours on I am convinced the choice was right, quieter, more economical, and streets ahead at lower revs. BTW, apart from regular full service including charge air cooler clean out when specified and the like, no work has been needed at all.

 

[Latestarter1]

Ulyden,

Your prejudice always lurks just below the surface........

Before we start playing the numbers game make sure you have picked either apples or oranges, mixing your fruit never gives the correct answer.

KAD 43 Hp is to fanciful ISO 8665 numbers.

D4 power is to far more realistic ISO 3046. Comparisons based on two different ISO standards are valueless.

Double checked my weights, always use standard upfit gearbox and deduct for bobtail.

Spec sheet weight of KAD43 with ZF 45 is 534 kg. ZF 45 weighs 24 kg
Spec sheet weight of D4 with ZF 45 is 546 kg

Cummins QSB, Iveco NEF, Volvo D4/6 All have Bosch common rail injector to the same body part# I suspect there are many more, but never bothered to look. Detail differences however all parts interchangeable and parts pricing is common.

I double checked my figures this morning with my pump shop, my last set of injectors were way back before £/Euro went all wrong, however despite improvement in exchange rate Bosch parts prices have not come back down. so my eastimate was on the low side. Reconditioned injector is now £139...

If your common rail injectors are lasting just 700 hours I would suggest that there is a huge market for proper multi stage fuel filteration. Bet you are shearing gear pump drives at quite a rate as well!

I was involved in durability trials back in the 1990's as we were VERY sceptical about fuel lubricated Bosch CP3 common rail pump. CP3 pumps made 22,000 hours without any issues. There the off few injector issues due to pre-production hardware however we were confidant that injector life was equal to the CP3 pump......Provided proper attention was paid to filteration. Sounds like people need their servicing shaken up over there.


I would suggest that whe you get the time take a look at a Volvo D4/6 on start up...Just a slight whisp of white after cranking then cleans up right away. Loaded acceleraton smoke around .2 or close to invisible. By the way Nox is colorless and good rule is the higher the injection pressure the finer the particulates. Visible smoke has little realtionship to emission levels.

And VP are not suplying overzized pistons! Yep that is exactly what I said, criminal i agree.

I am currenty on a project where we are replicating the power curve of a 24 liter gasoline aero engine with a 6.7 liter diesel engine. We looked at Rootes blowers over a year ago however compounding a turbocharger with a Rootes supercharger is nothing more than monkey motion stuff. Compounding a turbocharger with a Danish Rotrex supercharger is another matter entirely!

 

[scottie]

D3-KAD32 comparison you are joking

Ulyden

The comparision of D3-kad32 is likely to destroy your reputation if taken as a reason for making a choice between d4-kad42

I can see some reasons either way d4/42 but to compare the d3 against the kad32 is not a realistic option unless the current d3 is a totally different animal and it would be the old d3 that you were talking about I suspect that the early d3 cost Volvo a fortune in replacement units and owners nearly as much.
And that's before you looked at the choice of drives offered.

 

[volvopaul]

Hi , now my answer.

Well as an engineer whos not a rich man id go for the kad 43 ( which as LS pointed out isnt the 24 valve head, its the simpler 12 valve head).

To me the servicing costs on parts alone, along with at the moment no major internal parts available, along with diagnosis problems and having to pay a dealer to diagnose what could be just a loose cable etc practically just not on.

So id go for the kad43 as long as its all up to scratch, if sterdrive as well the DPH drive in my opinion is just a money making racket requiring fullysynthetic oil, expensive anodes and the steering system that just simply rots away in no time at all.

THe kad 43/44/300 drives which ar DPE and DPG on the 300 is a far simpler unit to look after.

All down to price , you make your own choice.

LS is quite right about modern tech of the D4, ive yet to rebuild or even strip one down, the only downside I find about the D4 is the vibration at idle, new mounts have been designed to combat this.

 

[Alwills]

Thanks for all the replies I really am confused now lol,
It will probably come down to how much Swmbo will let me spend.
Cheers all,
Alun..

 

[ulyden]

Se your points.

In Norway MGO is tax free so all are using this. It contains particles that destroy fuel valves. I know suppliers that add on 12 ekstra fuel filers to avoid particles destroying their parts.

Most common reason for CR engines not to start is no pressure build up in rail. No alarms no indication. The question is:

How many customers are starting up troubleshooting on their own trying to find root course? They dont know if there are a blown fuse fuel starvation or a leaking injektor!

I think above 80% of D4 owners are going to their dealer. Then they have to pay the dealer price of a injector or whatever failing part. VP price is high!



In the kad you can hear the stop solinoid and easily se the return flow from the fuel pump. In 99% of cases the engine vill run.

Well people are different. Hopefully there will be a lot of used KAD engines to a low prise on the used marked. If somebody have a KAD32 i have a boat for it!

"KAD 43 Hp is to fanciful ISO 8665 numbers.

D4 power is to far more realistic ISO 3046. Comparisons based on two different ISO standards are valueless. "

The KAD43 power is ISO 3046 Fuel stop power 40deg fuel and dens 840g/l Attached

 

[David2452]

Drives are a complete red herring in this discussion, that's assuming we are trying to answer the OP's question.

 

[volvopaul]

Drives are a complete red herring in this discussion, that's assuming we are trying to answer the OP's question.

The reason I mentioned drives is simple.

The kad has dpe/dpg drive.

The d4 has the dph and no other combination unless its a shaft drive boat which will help the OP come to a decision as to what he buys.

The parts that wear on the dpe are cost effctive, ie steering bushes an a seal £20.00 max per drive, the steering ram is inside the boat so not prone to problems.

The dph is a different story, 2 rams per set up at £450.00 each, they last maybe 2 seasons, when the leak they suck in sea water which in turn wrecks the power steering pump, I dont have current price but its £££££.

A contributing factor to a decision as to what motor to buy.

 

[David2452]

The boat is a given Paul, Antares 9, all shaft drive, no out drive options were ever offered. the OP is simply asking about differences in the two engines.