VHF license Spain

[Chelseadave]

Hi all. I’m moving to Spain shortly and looking at buying a small motorboat or rib. I have PB2 and ICC certification, but as any boat I buy will be Spanish registered, does anyone know if an RYA Marine Radio SRC certification issued in the UK will be valid, or is there a Spanish equivalent that needs to be completed for Spanish registered boats? TIA.

 

[Hurricane]

Lots of things to look into on this question.
Are you saying that you are going to be a Spanish resident?
If so, I don't think the ICC (or PB2) will cover a Spanish resident.
AFAIK, the ICC is specifically for a UK resident driving a British registered vessel.
Likewise the SRC.
I believe that you will have to obtain Spanish qualifications.
I think the issue is deeper further complicated by the fact that, as a Spanish resident, you aren't ALLOWED to own a non-Spanish registered boat.
So your idea of buying a Spanish registered boat is about the only thing you can do.
But, AFAIK, you will need Spanish qualifications as well.

 

[petem]

Lots of things to look into on this question.
Are you saying that you are going to be a Spanish resident?
If so, I don't think the ICC (or PB2) will cover a Spanish resident.
AFAIK, the ICC is specifically for a UK resident driving a British registered vessel.
Likewise the SRC.
I believe that you will have to obtain Spanish qualifications.
I think the issue is deeper further complicated by the fact that, as a Spanish resident, you aren't ALLOWED to own a non-Spanish registered boat.
So your idea of buying a Spanish registered boat is about the only thing you can do.
But, AFAIK, you will need Spanish qualifications as well.

See Spain | boating abroad | RYA .

 

[DavidJ]

I guess when you say ‘moving’ you are more than a 90/180 day visitor so you will be a resident.
As Hurricane suggests the ICC is unlikely to be accepted. Also applies to UK driving licences.
I hope your Spanish is up to test standard.

 

[Chelseadave]

Thanks @Hurricane and @DavidJ for the quick replies. I will be obtaining Spanish residency so what you say makes sense, given the similar scenario for driving licenses, i.e. I have to take a driving test to obtain a Spanish driving license. There are plenty of companies offering training so it makes sense that I need to look for ones offering the Spanish equivalents to the RYA. Given that I don’t yet own a boat, that will be one for me to look into once I move. Thanks again for the advice.

 

[petem]

I guess when you say ‘moving’ you are more than a 90/180 day visitor so you will be a resident.
As Hurricane suggests the ICC is unlikely to be accepted. Also applies to UK driving licences.
I hope your Spanish is up to test standard.

Assuming I'm reading it correctly, my link above says that an ICC is still valid for British citizens, resident in Spain, helming a Spanish flagged vessel.

 

[DavidJ]

Assuming I'm reading it correctly, my link above says that an ICC is still valid for British citizens, resident in Spain, helming a Spanish flagged vessel.

Must admit I just scanned your link but on further (and careful) investigation it says

If somebody is operating a foreign flagged pleasure boat in Spain and they are not a citizen of the flag state, they are required to have the certificate required by their country of residence or the country of which they are a citizen.

So Chelseadave will not be a Spanish citizen (not for some time anyway) so will be ok to have a certificate by the country they are a citizen. ( ie ICC from the UK)

Well spotted Pete

Wooops have I made a mistake?
I think I’m using the word foreign to mean non British but in this context it could mean non Spanish

 

[petem]

Wooops have I made a mistake?
I think I’m using the word foreign to mean non British but in this context it could mean non Spanish

I read it to mean a non UK flagged boat (e.g. Spanish, Maltese, etc). But that's fine providing you are still a UK Citizen and have a ICC.

 

[Chelseadave]

Thanks @petem and @DavidJ .

The plot thickens, but does perhaps offer a glimmer of hope!

There are 2 key sets of wording from the RYA link above. Firstly, as outlined above, "If somebody is operating a foreign flagged pleasure boat in Spain and they are not a citizen of the flag state, they are required to have the certificate required by their country of residence or the country of which they are a citizen". As far as I can see, the challenge here is with the interpretation of 2 points:

1. "operating a foreign flagged pleasure boat in Spain and they are not a citizen of the flag state" - does that mean foreign flagged from Spain's perspective, i.e. British, French, German etc., or from the perspective of the person operating (i.e. me)? In the first instance, that would mean I would need Spanish certification, but in the second, I could continue to operate a Spanish registered boat with UK certification.

2. "they are required to have the certificate required by their country of residence or the country of which they are a citizen". Which takes precedent, as I will be a Spanish resident but a British citizen!

Also, further down in the RYA guidance, it states "Royal Decree 875/2014 refers to Annex IX specifically in relation to the hire of Spanish flagged pleasure boats. These certificates may not be accepted in other scenarios. Professional RYA certificates that were previously accepted in Spain when the UK was an EU Member State may still not be acceptable for commercial activities in Spain". This suggests that the use of UK certification is limited to the hiring of boats in Spain, but not ownership.

To be fair, I knew what I signed up for in terms of Spanish bureaucracy, especially post-Brexit, when I decided to move there, so it may come down to getting local legal advice, but thank you for your input/interpretations!

 

[DavidJ]

Re Commercial activities
There was something on here a year or so back and it was about the problems for UK skippers of EU registered boats (post Brexit). You are the owner not a commercial hired skipper so does not apply.
I think I sense you are not buying a superyacht requiring a skipper.

Because it’s the RYA I think they (like me) call foreigners ‘non British’. So if you replace ‘foreign’ by ‘non British’ does that make things clearer?

Re your point 2. I don’t think it’s a matter of precedent it’s an ‘or’ so your choice which one applies.

 

[TonyR123]

ICC is fine in Spain. Guys who look after my boat have lived there for 30+ years and the ICC is fine.

 

[wallacebob]

ICC perfectly acceptable in your situation, but a Spanish Titulo is easy to get in most sailing areas too. I had my RYA DS and ICC checked by local port captain, who then gave me a form (with important rubber stamp) saying I was acceptable in Spanish waters: this helps when Guardia stop you.

 

[Hurricane]

Assuming I'm reading it correctly, my link above says that an ICC is still valid for British citizens, resident in Spain, helming a Spanish flagged vessel.

This is Spanish Residencia that Chelseadave is talking about.
As far as the Spanish are concerned, he might not be a UK resident.
I have never had any confidence in the RYA getting it right and in this case, they probably don't even know what Residencia is.

I suspect that wallacebob has way more experience than the RYA in this matter.

 

[Portofino]

On a similar vein the the subject of comity .

If I were the OP I would get Sp qualifications and morph into the local rules , if that means a Sp reg boat one day so be it .

There might be a transition period he can ( using a relatives uk address ) bypass this stuff for a while .So no desperate rush .
Use his ICC etc and retained British passport even though he aims to become a Sp resident eventually.

Personal experience it’s better to show officialdom exactly the same qualifications as the locals .

I know a lot on here hang there hats on the icc, but it was ever only for “ innocent passage “ UKs inclusion in the EU and the gen trend then to merge / Intergrate laws and rules meant that states just accepted it never applied the full comity bit .They partially kinda did cherry picked ,Eg France had a list of safety equipment which inc a defined flare pack .Irrespective of the flag .

Below is a copy of a link I keep in notes .


Comity

Its currently over looked at the mo in the EU , but your ( what ever flagged boat ) stays effectively permanently, more than 6 months then by the book they can now insist you follow local rules , so no change per se after 1/1/21 , just a question if a cattle prod from Brussels comes down forcing the Sp FR or what ever to apply it to 3P states like the U.K.

You can see why waaaaay back in 2005 I did the French permit d Mer .Already had the RYA tickets btw , this was as well as ,not instead of - because at the time the boat is / was not transient in the Cote d Azur .I permanently based it there .
The rag on the stern stuck to a pole is irrelevant.

This “ British flag = British rules “ debate regularly crops up. I think you need to read Uncloss 11 and other international agreements. The coastal State can impose whatever conditions it wants on vessels NOT on innocent passage. Portugal for instance requires pleasure craft there for more that 6 months to carry the same safety equipment as Portuguese registered ones although unlike a few years ago Portugal where foreign flagged boats that are deemed resident are required to comply with local rules on equipment. New Zealand also applies local rules to foreign boats that are resident, although like Portugal it exempts genuine visitors or boats on "innocent passage".

Innocent passage is an important concept in international law as that is when coastal states apply the principle of "comity" and respect the state flags rules. However once a boat starts cruising within the waters of the coastal state, and that time exceeds 6 months then “innocent passage “no longer applies and with it comity, although in practice most states do extend comity, at least for private leisure craft. That’s the current position within the Med.

The counter argument on often retorted on here when I drag this up - is if EU states get tough on comity is economic in the sense U.K. boaters will leave .

But as said if Brussels decrees the EU must follow it then your icc is worthless.

I know ^^^ is not popular amongst the icc only guys based in the Med .

There was a thread a while back a U.K. chap based in Greece .Villa HoL home + rib .His rib was impounded as he only had the icc .
The Gr made him do the Gr qualification .The boat was obviously permanently based in Gr waters you see and as I said he is now a 3 P in there eyes .I,am not sure iirc he had to re reg it in Gr or something.Up shot was tax inclusion as opposed to its former exclusion status.Something along those lines .Any how icc was dismissed.

 

[petem]

This is Spanish Residencia that Chelseadave is talking about.
As far as the Spanish are concerned, he might not be a UK resident.
I have never had any confidence in the RYA getting it right and in this case, they probably don't even know what Residencia is.

I suspect that wallacebob has way more experience than the RYA in this matter.

What my RYA link does highlight is that the rules changed as a result of Brexit and they appear to have changed again. I wasn't aware of the latter.

Whilst I agree that RYA advice can be a bit flakey, at least it gives a starting point for someone to do further research if it's important to them.

 

[st599]

Assuming I'm reading it correctly, my link above says that an ICC is still valid for British citizens, resident in Spain, helming a Spanish flagged vessel.

ICC is fine in Spain. Guys who look after my boat have lived there for 30+ years and the ICC is fine.

Spain isn't a signatory of either of the treaties that implements ICC. So it's up to local interpretation, could be valid tomorrow and invalid next week.

 

[capnsensible]

Thanks @petem and @DavidJ .

The plot thickens, but does perhaps offer a glimmer of hope!

There are 2 key sets of wording from the RYA link above. Firstly, as outlined above, "If somebody is operating a foreign flagged pleasure boat in Spain and they are not a citizen of the flag state, they are required to have the certificate required by their country of residence or the country of which they are a citizen". As far as I can see, the challenge here is with the interpretation of 2 points:

1. "operating a foreign flagged pleasure boat in Spain and they are not a citizen of the flag state" - does that mean foreign flagged from Spain's perspective, i.e. British, French, German etc., or from the perspective of the person operating (i.e. me)? In the first instance, that would mean I would need Spanish certification, but in the second, I could continue to operate a Spanish registered boat with UK certification.

2. "they are required to have the certificate required by their country of residence or the country of which they are a citizen". Which takes precedent, as I will be a Spanish resident but a British citizen!

Also, further down in the RYA guidance, it states "Royal Decree 875/2014 refers to Annex IX specifically in relation to the hire of Spanish flagged pleasure boats. These certificates may not be accepted in other scenarios. Professional RYA certificates that were previously accepted in Spain when the UK was an EU Member State may still not be acceptable for commercial activities in Spain". This suggests that the use of UK certification is limited to the hiring of boats in Spain, but not ownership.

To be fair, I knew what I signed up for in terms of Spanish bureaucracy, especially post-Brexit, when I decided to move there, so it may come down to getting local legal advice, but thank you for your input/interpretations!

Top tip.

Try a call or email to Debs at Marbella Sailing. Based in Puerto Banus. They run power boat courses too. I would expect they can offer advice. They also have an instructor that is fluent in Spanish.

Hope this helps.

RYA Power Boat Courses | Marbella Sailing School | RYA Training Centre

 

[DavidJ]

Spain isn't a signatory of either of the treaties that implements ICC. So it's up to local interpretation, could be valid tomorrow and invalid next week.

The RYA claims to have sorted this a year back

“Following reinstatement of RYA qualifications into Spanish law, RYA certificate holders will now be able to continue to skipper boats registered in Spain as well as in the UK.”

Ref
https://www.rya.org.uk/news/rya-certificates-of-competence-to-be-reinstated-in-spain

 

[petem]

The RYA claims to have sorted this a year back

“Following reinstatement of RYA qualifications into Spanish law, RYA certificate holders will now be able to continue to skipper boats registered in Spain as well as in the UK.”

Ref
https://www.rya.org.uk/news/rya-certificates-of-competence-to-be-reinstated-in-spain

Interestingly, having read it again, my link also says...

"Royal Decree 875/2014 refers to Annex IX specifically in relation to the hire of Spanish flagged pleasure boats. These certificates may not be accepted in other scenarios. Professional RYA certificates that were previously accepted in Spain when the UK was an EU Member State may still not be acceptable for commercial activities in Spain. If we receive further information it will be added here."

So ICC may only be acceptable for hiring and not owning Spanish flagged boats?

 

[st599]

Interestingly, having read it again, my link also says...

"Royal Decree 875/2014 refers to Annex IX specifically in relation to the hire of Spanish flagged pleasure boats. These certificates may not be accepted in other scenarios. Professional RYA certificates that were previously accepted in Spain when the UK was an EU Member State may still not be acceptable for commercial activities in Spain. If we receive further information it will be added here."

So ICC may only be acceptable for hiring and not owning Spanish flagged boats?

Spain is not a signatory to ICC, they don't issue them and aren't required to accept them. The use of RYA Professional certificates in the EU was covered under Freedom of Movement regulations. It's now up to individual states.