VHF - hailing an unknown ship (in the middle of the night)

geem said:
Having been out in the Atlantic with our AIS transponder switched on and had a large tanker bear down on us from behind, you need to be careful with AIS. Large ships don't always seem to use it in the ocean. However, the AIS is great to be able to identify the name of the ship and then use the VHF to radio them up. We did this. The ship didn't respond to the VHF but they did do an immediate course change to avoid us.
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A good reason to consider having an active radar reflector?

Cactus offer one like mine ( I have no affiliations with Cactus )
http://www.cactusnav.com/echomax-active-dual-band-radar-reflector-p-11449.html

S.
 
Funny old world, innit. Ive used vhf a few times before ais gps tla whatever to talk to vessels to avoid a risk of collision. Always worked fine for me.

These days I get to sail most days and always have radio and ais on. Still hear, constantly through the day ship captains chatting to avoid roc. Seems like the shiney arses in the MCA need to get out more!

Mind you, dsc alerts 10 times a day about immigrant boats foundering is depressing.

And best not mention the daily transgressions by state vessels into Britisg Gibraltar territorial waters.......
 
Zen Zero said:
Back in August, with a couple of friends, I was crossing over to Sardinia from Tuscany, a distance of a little over 100NM. It was a beautiful night with no moon, just millions and millions of stars and the Milky Way to show us the way and of course shooting stars (so many we had to stop saying "wow!" and just watch them in silence).

We saw just 3 ships that night, all of them going North, appearing as a glow on the horizon and then nearly running us down an hour later. This happened twice. The third ship passed a mile ahead of us and her wake flung me out of bed. The first ship paid us no attention at all while we hove to to let it pass, but there was still enough twilight for us to see each other.

This is about the second ship - the Norwegian Epic (I think) we discovered was her name afterwards, but at the time we didn't know. We'd been watching her for about an hour and determined we were on a collision course. We were the stand-on vessel (under sail, approaching from the ship's starboard bow) but would have been happy to take avoiding action. We didn't know whether they had seen our puny navigation lights. So the first thing we did was turn on the foredeck light to illuminate the genoa. This got a response from their searchlight.

What to do now?

We didn't want to interrupt the cruise ship's passage and were happy to heave to for a few minutes to let her pass, so I grabbed the hand held and said something like "um, large, er... cruise ship, um, this is the sailing yacht [name] [name] [name]". No answer. Twice.

So we tacked, altered course 90° to port and sailed down a track parallel to hers in the opposite direction about half a mile off and tacked back onto our course again when we were clear of her stern. We noticed that she had stopped, which was a pity because we'd have been quite happy to keep out of her way and let her carry on without wasting all that fuel stopping and starting again.

While all this was going on, an Italian friend whose knowledge of English consisted of hello, goodbye and "large cruise sheep ..." was babbling into the radio trying to get a response. The response we got was "Sailing yacht what is your position?" but by then the ship was halfway over the Northern horizon and there didn't seem much point in drawing any more attention to ourselves.

We arrived off the Sardinian coast in broad daylight had a refreshing swim, a shower, a plate of spaghetti with mashed crabs for lunch in a bar whose name I can't remember and then caught the bus to Olbia and the ferry back to the mainland while the owners set off on their summer cruise.

Why I'm posting this here, is to see what you think about keeping out of the way of commercial traffic in the middle of the sea in the middle of the night and how a VHF can help?

In hindsight, it would have been better to radio the ship much earlier, using the big radio by the chart table.
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It's a good question, the correct answer to which I think relatively few of us know.

First of all, follow the rules. Assuming you are dealing with a normal commercial ship steaming at 12 to 18 knots, the process goes like this:

Detection. Be aware of the presence of another vessel and detect a possible collision course at least 7 to 10 miles off in open water.

Stand on if you are the stand on vessel. Give the other vessel a chance to maneuver -- you are obligated to do this, in order not to screw up his maneuver.

If you do all that and by approximately 5 miles out there has been no alteration of course or speed by the other vessel, then in many cases you may reasonably assume that no action will be taken, and you have the right to maneuver yourself.

At this stage, purists will tell you to stay away from the radio, but I disagree. PROVIDED you have at least an AIS receiver and can hail the vessel by name (if not, then I agree, it's a waste of time and possibly a dangerous distraction). Hail the vessel by name and ask them if they intend to hold course and speed, or even ASK THEM to hold course and speed, and inform them about what maneuver you will take.

Then, make a large change of course which leaves no doubt to observers about what you are doing. Avoid turning to port if possible. To do this safely, you need to be able to know how you are crossing with the other vessel, so you need to be handy with a HBC or radar plot, or much better, HAVE AIS. Otherwise, you might not recognize a safe pass already organised by the ship, and turn into a collision course. You can't tell just by eyeballing it -- you must have one of these methods.


That's it.

By the way, you should not assume that ships see your nav lights. Watchkeeping on commercial bridges varies a lot, and is sometimes very poor. You will have a somewhat better chance of being seen at night with a good radar reflector, but to be recognized as participant of traffic worth paying attention to, you really need to be broadcasting AIS. AIS is now widespread enough that -- pure human nature -- vessels not transmitting AIS are noticed less and less and less. Word to the wise.
 
Dockhead said:
First of all, follow the rules. Assuming you are dealing with a normal commercial ship steaming at 12 to 18 knots, the process goes like this:

Detection. Be aware of the presence of another vessel and detect a possible collision course at least 7 to 10 miles off in open water.

Stand on if you are the stand on vessel. Give the other vessel a chance to maneuver -- you are obligated to do this, in order not to screw up his maneuver.

If you do all that and by approximately 5 miles out there has been no alteration of course or speed by the other vessel, then in many cases you may reasonably assume that no action will be taken, and you have the right to maneuver yourself..
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Good luck expecting big ships to take action at 5 miles. Perhaps mid ocean, but in coastal waters, I'd be expecting it at about 2 miles, and wouldn't be surprised if a small coaster waited until half a mile.

I seem to recall that you should stand on until a collision could not be avoided by the actions of the give way vessel alone.... This would generally be way less than a mile, and maybe only a few hundred yards.
 
Richard10002 said:
Good luck expecting big ships to take action at 5 miles. Perhaps mid ocean, but in coastal waters, I'd be expecting it at about 2 miles, and wouldn't be surprised if a small coaster waited until half a mile.

I seem to recall that you should stand on until a collision could not be avoided by the actions of the give way vessel alone.... This would generally be way less than a mile, and maybe only a few hundred yards.
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I've had big tankers take evasive action in traffic lanes @ 12 miles in the Baltic.
That was using AIS & calling them on vhf. They had to take action asap, because of all the other traffic in the same lane. Waiting for 2 miles, would have been disaster. I was a survey vessel crossing the Fehmarn Belt at right angles to the lanes & quite exciting. Many near misses, particularly Russians, even one going up the down lane. When advised he was in wrong lane, he replied "that is only your opinon".
 
Ok so you are sailing at night and you can see on your AIS that the approaching ship has not made an alteration to her course. Has anyone here sent up a white flare to let the OOW know you are there?
 
Richard10002 said:
Good luck expecting big ships to take action at 5 miles. Perhaps mid ocean, but in coastal waters, I'd be expecting it at about 2 miles, and wouldn't be surprised if a small coaster waited until half a mile.

I seem to recall that you should stand on until a collision could not be avoided by the actions of the give way vessel alone.... This would generally be way less than a mile, and maybe only a few hundred yards.
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Typical decision point in open water, for commercial ships with a sharp bridge, is about 10 miles. You will never perceive it without AIS or a really good radar plot. If no action has been taken by 5 miles, it is unlikely that the ship has seen you.

You should certainly not stand on until a collision can be avoided only by your maneuver. COLREGS say you MUST do so at that point, but you MAY maneuver yourself if you judge that the the give-way vessel is not taking appropriate action.

Actually, there is practically no way that you can avoid a collision once the point has been reached where a ship cannot avoid you by its own maneuver. That's because of the difference in speed. The ability to open up the CPA is a direct function of speed. So once it's too late for him to do it, you won't be able to do it yourself-- i.e., you're dead.

In open water, a mile is close quarters -- far too close. You should never get within a mile of a commercial ship in open water (unless, maybe, passing behind). Actually, one mile CPA is typical standing orders on commercial ships in waters like the English Channel. One problem with yachts without AIS is that there are no means on board which allow calculation of CPA to better than +/- 1 mile. Commercial masters often complain that they have set up a reasonable crossing -- N.B. 10 miles out! -- with a yacht, only to have the yachtsman wake up at 3 or 4 miles out, fail to perceive that the crossing is safe, and then maneuver into their paths.
 
Richard10002 said:
I seem to recall that you should stand on until a collision could not be avoided by the actions of the give way vessel alone
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Nope - that's when you must manoeuvre. You may manoeuvre once it becomes clear that the give way vessel isn't giving way.

Judging exactly where those points are in the real world is the tricky bit of course.

Pete
 
Richard10002 said:
I know what's in the collision regs, but it's actually me as the skipper who makes the decision as to what to do.
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The skipper always decides what to do, but that doesn't mean that what he decides to do is compliant with the Rules. The COLREGS don't leave the determination of a risk of collision up to your judgement. If you are in sight of another vessel and you cannot determine that the bearing is changing, there is a risk of collision. Rule 7 says ". . . such risk shall be deemed to exist if the compass bearing of an approaching vessel does not appreciably change. . ." -- it does not say, if you judge that there is a risk of collision or even if you judge that the bearing is changing. If the compass bearing is, objectively, not appreciably changing, then a risk of collision (as that term is used in the COLREGS) exists, and all of the obligations connected with that come into effect.
 
alant said:
I've had big tankers take evasive action in traffic lanes @ 12 miles in the Baltic.
That was using AIS & calling them on vhf. They had to take action asap, because of all the other traffic in the same lane. Waiting for 2 miles, would have been disaster. I was a survey vessel crossing the Fehmarn Belt at right angles to the lanes & quite exciting. Many near misses, particularly Russians, even one going up the down lane. When advised he was in wrong lane, he replied "that is only your opinon".
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LOL. I've been there. The Russian tanker drivers are crazy. I had one come from outside of a marked channel (in the approaches to Vyborg in the Eastern Gulf of Finland), and into the marked channel, which I am sailing down, running dead downwind, and just about run me down from behind, while leaning on his whistle. I almost ran onto the rocks getting out of his way. I thought about complaining to the Russian Beregovaya Okhrana, then thought better of it -- considering I hadn't cleared out of Russian waters yet :)
 
I think the mistake was in illuminating the foresail. I think I would have taken it (as skipper of the ship) as 'here we are, we are stand on and we are coming through'.

If you were going to manouver to avoid the ship, why emphasise that you are there? It doesn't matter if he has seen you or not if you are keeping of of his way.

MD
 
Richard10002 said:
Good luck expecting big ships to take action at 5 miles. Perhaps mid ocean, but in coastal waters, I'd be expecting it at about 2 miles, and wouldn't be surprised if a small coaster waited until half a mile.

I seem to recall that you should stand on until a collision could not be avoided by the actions of the give way vessel alone.... This would generally be way less than a mile, and maybe only a few hundred yards.
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In my experience most ship do not alter course until they are between 2 miles and 0.5 miles away.The seem to be much more relaxed that we are. P-ersonally the sooner a ship moves the earlier I can relax because I know he has seen me and is paying attention. Many see you but don't bother to do anything until the feel they need to probably because so many yachts second guess the ships and so the alter course only to find that the yacht has either slowed or changed direction.
 
I don't think we should dismiss completely the idea of using VHF. Two stories to support this.
In the channel we had gradually reducing visibility which I failed to notice quickly enough and until we became aware of some engine noise. We had radar and I switched it on but in those days it took a few minutes to 'wind up'. While waiting we were called on channel 16 by a ship calling 'yacht at position...' To which I replied. He said he was towing and would pass just behind us so 'do not have a concern' (is don't panic and don't do anything. We then saw him and his tow on radar and he passed behind such that we could just see a 'shadow'.
Crossing the Irish sea at night I was aware from AIS that two ships had a closing course. I suspected one would turn towards me so I called him by name on CH 16 to indicate my presence. He responded that he did not see our AIS (we did not have one then) but having adjusted his radar he was now aware of us and would avoid us.
 
Dockhead said:
LOL. I've been there. The Russian tanker drivers are crazy. I had one come from outside of a marked channel (in the approaches to Vyborg in the Eastern Gulf of Finland), and into the marked channel, which I am sailing down, running dead downwind, and just about run me down from behind, while leaning on his whistle. I almost ran onto the rocks getting out of his way. I thought about complaining to the Russian Beregovaya Okhrana, then thought better of it -- considering I hadn't cleared out of Russian waters yet :)
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We have also been there. One ship suggested I alter course as he was a commercial vessel and a course change would be expensive!
 
Had one that complied to the basics rules. Early morning in the Med, well out of sight of land. See a bit of smoke on the horizon, which enlarges to be a ship, on a constant bearing. I wait to see what his intentions are, but see no change, so when he is clearly on a collision course, I tack and he passes about 50 mtrs away. Just as he passed, a bloke comes out of the upperworks and tosses a can of trash over the side. I swear he didn't even notice us.
This was a while back and we had no radio or any other way of attracting his attention. VHF would have been useful., but back then probably not monitered much on tramp steamers ('69).
 
Dockhead said:
The skipper always decides what to do, but that doesn't mean that what he decides to do is compliant with the Rules. The COLREGS don't leave the determination of a risk of collision up to your judgement. If you are in sight of another vessel and you cannot determine that the bearing is changing, there is a risk of collision. Rule 7 says ". . . such risk shall be deemed to exist if the compass bearing of an approaching vessel does not appreciably change. . ." -- it does not say, if you judge that there is a risk of collision or even if you judge that the bearing is changing. If the compass bearing is, objectively, not appreciably changing, then a risk of collision (as that term is used in the COLREGS) exists, and all of the obligations connected with that come into effect.
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So... if you are on your yacht, and see a ship 12 miles away where the bearing isnt changing appreciably, and you are the stand on vessel, you never make a manouevre that obviously removes the risk of collision, and takes all of the heat out of standing on and keeping your fingers crossed, and makes you of no concern to the OOW on the ship, other than keeping a watchful eye out?

From memory, in many cases, bearings dont start to change appreciably, even if there is a reasonable CPA.
 
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