VHF - hailing an unknown ship (in the middle of the night)

[RichardS]

I dont see anything wrong with making yourself the give way vessel, rather than the stand on, provided you do it in plenty of time, and show the right lights. You can then take control of the situation and, in a crossing situation, can go from showing a green to showing a red, to make it clear that you have made a significant alteration of course to starboard, and will be passing astern of the other vessel.

(I think I've got that the right way round.... it's a few years since I had to think about red, green and white).

If you reach the point where a passenger vessel has to make a crash stop, i'm not sure there was no danger, and dont think it is merely a bit of comedy, but I guess the action taken by the stand on vessel, (shining a light on the sails), was enough to prevent collision, albeit, not on its own.

I included the smiley because, if I remember my ColRegs correctly, once a collision situation has been recognised, which it would have been if you are the stand-on vessel, I don't think that either boat can change it's status by doing something like starting the engine or hoisting the sails. Obviously, in the end you can do whatever you need to do to avoid a collision but that does not change the ColReg obligations.

No doubt someone will come along and tell me that I've mis-remembered this.

Richard

 

[alan_d]

No doubt someone will come along and tell me that I've mis-remembered this.

Richard

I suspect you are thinking of rule 13(d), which relates only to overtaking:

Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking
vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping
clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Depends how fast you're going and how early you made the turn ...

If you can't see their alteration - and they're a ruddy great ship - how can you expect them to see yours?

A few years ago we did similar to your deck light trick - turned it on and lit up the genoa - worked a treat and the ferry made it clear that they were going to hold back until we were across their path.
Even with a vessel name from an AIS receiver, how does the OOW know he's talking to the vessel he can see? There may be a few yachts out there - out of your sight, but in his ...

Stand on Vessel doesn't require you to stand-on regardless - it requires you to stand on until it's clear that the other vessel isn't taking suitable avoiding action - but at what point do you say the colregs apply? At first sighting of the vessel? At 10Nm, at 5Nm ? There is no set point (that I can see) - so if you're still miles apart then IMHO in these sorts of cases (rather than ship vs ship) you're at liberty to alter your course at will ...

Given that a smallish yacht's rate of turn is typically going to be orders of magnitude faster than a cruise liner's it would be a lot easier for the liner to see the yacht's 90° course change from their vantage point than for the OP to see the liner's much smaller and slower course change from down in the weeds.

As stand-on in a small boat you can't always see that the other vessel is taking avoiding action and end up having to assume a risk of collision exists. The onus is upon the give way vessel to make it's couse change obvious, which large ships often don't do. Rule 7 applied here as far as the OP was concerned:

Rule 7 - Risk of collision
(c) Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information.
(d) In determining if risk of collision exists the following considerations shall be among those taken into account:
​

(i) such risk shall be deemed to exist if the compass bearing of an approaching vessel does not appreciably change;
(ii) such risk may sometimes exist even when an appreciable bearing change is evident, particularly when approaching a very large vessel or a tow or when approaching a vessel at close range.


​

​

and rule 8 applied to the liner:

​

Rule 8 - Action to avoid collision
(a) Any action taken to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.
(b) Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed should be avoided.
(c) If there is sufficient sea-room, alteration of course alone may be the most effective action to avoid a close-quarters situation provided that it is made in good time, is substantial and does not result in another close-quarters situation.
(d) Action taken to avoid collision with another vessel shall be such as to result in passing at a safe distance. The effectiveness of the action shall be carefully checked until the other vessel is finally past and clear.
​

 

[alant]

Me for starters, because I am in favour of every mariner on the planet obeying the Colregs.

edited to add, signed Billy Goat Jerry..

I well remember being told, that many VLCC's arrived in the Middle East, being suprised to find odd bits of yacht masts attached to one of their anchors, suprised because they hadn't even noticed the bump.

Having worked on survey vessels in the Baltic & suffered many near misses from 'crazy ivans' who knew exactly where we were, I'm not convinced that ColRegs are universally adhered too, so firmly believe that outside the Solent, distance 'rules'.

Recently,crossing Dover entrances, having spoken to Dover Port Control, tried to make contact with a ferry to advise our presence, on ch16, without success. As the bard said, sometimes "discretion is the better part of valour".

 

[RichardS]

I suspect you are thinking of rule 13(d), which relates only to overtaking:

That's interesting. If there is no reference to a crossing situation then you could be a motor-sailing give-way vessel but all you need to do is stop your engine and take down your motoring cone (!) and convert yourself to the stand-on vessel.

I'm pretty sure that this is not allowed but if there's no regulation preventing it then I guess I'm wrong.

Richard

 

[jerrytug]

I well remember being told, that many VLCC's arrived in the Middle East, being suprised to find odd bits of yacht masts attached to one of their anchors, suprised because they hadn't even noticed the bump.

Having worked on survey vessels in the Baltic & suffered many near misses from 'crazy ivans' who knew exactly where we were, I'm not convinced that ColRegs are universally adhered too, so firmly believe that outside the Solent, distance 'rules'.

Recently,crossing Dover entrances, having spoken to Dover Port Control, tried to make contact with a ferry to advise our presence, on ch16, without success. As the bard said, sometimes "discretion is the better part of valour".

I've been told that one about the yacht fragments on the anchor as well..

True plenty of vessels out there ignore/never heard of the rules, doesn't mean it shouldn't be encouraged though.

Dover, ferry, try 13 bridge to bridge or 11 CNIS both of which they OUGHT to have on but hey..

 

[Zen Zero]

That's interesting. If there is no reference to a crossing situation then you could be a motor-sailing give-way vessel but all you need to do is stop your engine and take down your motoring cone (!) and convert yourself to the stand-on vessel.

I'm pretty sure that this is not allowed but if there's no regulation preventing it then I guess I'm wrong.

Richard

As I discovered, it's much better for the wee boat to be the give way vessel. It gives you greater freedom to act. If you're stand-on you have to rely on the other vessel and luck.

 

[prv]

That's interesting. If there is no reference to a crossing situation then you could be a motor-sailing give-way vessel but all you need to do is stop your engine and take down your motoring cone (!) and convert yourself to the stand-on vessel.

I'm pretty sure that this is not allowed but if there's no regulation preventing it then I guess I'm wrong.

I have a feeling there may be case law saying you can't do that, but my dodgy Russian scanned PDF of C&L is at home and I'm not

I have once been sent aloft to quickly shake out a topsail because we were in the Inshore Traffic Zone of a TSS and the captain wanted to pretend we were a sailing vessel

Pete

 

[Richard10002]

I included the smiley because, if I remember my ColRegs correctly, once a collision situation has been recognised, which it would have been if you are the stand-on vessel, I don't think that either boat can change it's status by doing something like starting the engine or hoisting the sails. Obviously, in the end you can do whatever you need to do to avoid a collision but that does not change the ColReg obligations.

No doubt someone will come along and tell me that I've mis-remembered this.

Richard

Which is why I said "in plenty of time". I dont know the precise interpretation of the rules in this instance but I have been on the bridge of a ship, both as Officer of The Watch, as well as assisting someone senior. Some officers will wait until a very small distance away from the stand on vessel before making the required alteration... often under the guise of saving fuel, but my interpretation was one of bravado and such like.

Based on that experience, as well as being in the yacht on many occasions, I much prefer to see that a risk of collision "might be developing", and take some action that gives me control... long before the officer on the bridge of the ship will even be considering a move and, in busy traffic areas, long before I have even become the vessel that he is considering - he might be aware of me, but leaving me to deal with later.

My actions in these kinds of circumstances usually comprise a significant, and obvious, alteration of course, (a tack may be appropriate if sailing close hauled). They sometimes comprise an change of speed... stopping is the most obvious thing to do. I cant recall ever deliberately making the change from being a stand on sailing vessel to a give way motoring vessel, although I'm sure there will have been times when I've started the engine to ensure that it works and that it is ready if needed.

 

[pmagowan]

I have a feeling there may be case law saying you can't do that, but my dodgy Russian scanned PDF of C&L is at home and I'm not

I have once been sent aloft to quickly shake out a topsail because we were in the Inshore Traffic Zone of a TSS and the captain wanted to pretend we were a sailing vessel

Pete

Yes I am pretty sure that once you enter a situation as described in colregs where a risk of collision exists your status is defined from that moment and you can't go changing it willy nilly. To be honest I find it concerning that people would think this is a reasonable course of action as it seems to either be an underhand way of ducking your responsibility or simply another sign of being a WAFI and spreading confusion wherever you go. I don't see what is wrong with simply obeying colregs, taking your responsibilities seriously and demonstrating good seamanship.

p.s. non-personal 'you and your' used throughout.

 

[Richard10002]

Yes I am pretty sure that once you enter a situation as described in colregs where a risk of collision exists your status is defined from that moment and you can't go changing it willy nilly. To be honest I find it concerning that people would think this is a reasonable course of action as it seems to either be an underhand way of ducking your responsibility or simply another sign of being a WAFI and spreading confusion wherever you go. I don't see what is wrong with simply obeying colregs, taking your responsibilities seriously and demonstrating good seamanship.

p.s. non-personal 'you and your' used throughout.

Who defines the point at which risk of collision is deemed to exist...

 

[pmagowan]

Who defines the point at which risk of collision is deemed to exist...

7. Risk of collision Vessels must use all available means to determine the risk of a collision, including the use of radar (if available) to get early warning of the risk of collision by radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects. (e.g. ARPA, AIS). If the distance of any vessel is reducing and her compass bearing is not changing much or it is a large vessel or towing vessel at close distance, or if there is any doubt, then a risk of collision shall be deemed to exist.[6]

The skipper makes the decision based on colregs. The important thing to note is they must be able to justify their decision if they end up in court which is only likely to happen if a collision occurs. There is caselaw on this as PRV said but it is, as far as I am aware, limited to large ships. I remember one discussion which clarified (for large ships) just what distances were involved. One problem is that if the other vessel has deemed that a risk of collision exists then you may be considered by law to be in such a situation whether you have determined it or not.

Common sense has to be used and there is a rule about that too, including the particular restrictions and peculiarities of each vessel. So, I think most large ships when they see a small vessel tacking back and forth to make a direction are not going to hold him to stand on if one tack temporarily brings him onto a constant bearing.

My general rule is, If I see a ship a nd wonder if a ROC exists and I look at him through my compass and get a constant bearing then a ROC exists.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

FWIW the only time I've ever had a close encounter with a ship at night was on the approach to Cadiz a few years back. A cruise ship was also heading into the port (we were about 10 miles out) and her bearing wasn't changing. So I called the ship using the hail 'cruise ship entering Cadiz' and asked if she had me on the radar and what her intentions were. I got an immediate response from the bridge asking for my position relative to her: once that was established, the OOW acknowledged he had seen me and would be passing to our starboard side, which he subsequently did.

So what? Well, I used an easily understood reference to make sure that the ship would know I was calling them. I didn't make any suggestions as to their course of action, rather asked if they had seen me and what they were thinking of doing. There shouldn't be any negotiation of courses of action, simply getting an acknowledgement from the OOW that they have you on their plot and what action they intend to take.

Agreed. I've often had that sort of exchange with another vessel, and it's always been friendly and welcomed by the other vessel. I don't see any danger in that kind of use of VHF (despite dire warnings from MCA et al) provided you use it purely as a back-up (sometimes you won't get a reply, there are plenty of possible reasons for that) and follow the Colregs.

Best one was miles out in the ocean, where I suddenly realised an overtaking ship had taken an unexpected turn to wards us. When I called I get a cheery "Yes little sailing yacht we see you! We altered course to come and have a closer look at you! Where are you going? Do you need anything?"

 

[prv]

7. Risk of collision Vessels must use all available means to determine the risk of a collision, including the use of radar (if available) to get early warning of the risk of collision by radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects. (e.g. ARPA, AIS). If the distance of any vessel is reducing and her compass bearing is not changing much or it is a large vessel or towing vessel at close distance, or if there is any doubt, then a risk of collision shall be deemed to exist.[6]

Where does that text come from? It's not the actual regulations...

Pete

 

[jerrytug]

It's from some book.."A Guide to the Rules" or something. Not Cockroft and Lameyer anyway.

 

[pmagowan]

Where does that text come from? It's not the actual regulations...

Pete

It is the simplified rules on wiki, here is the complete version.

Rule 7
Risk of collision
(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and
conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed
to exist.
(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range
scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic
observation of detected objects.
(c) Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar
information.
(d) In determining if risk of collision exists the following considerations shall be among those taken
into account:
(i) such risk shall be deemed to exist if the compass bearing of an approaching vessel does
not appreciably change;
(ii) such risk may sometimes exist even when an appreciable bearing change is evident,
particularly when approaching a very large vessel or a tow or when approaching a vessel
at close range.

 

[prv]

It is the simplified rules on wiki

I suspected as much

Always best to go to the actual source, which in the UK is MSN 1781. The actual Regulations start at page 3; the preamble from the MCA just describes how they're part of UK law.

Pete

 

[pmagowan]

I suspected as much

Always best to go to the actual source, which in the UK is MSN 1781. The actual Regulations start at page 3; the preamble from the MCA just describes how they're part of UK law.

Pete

The complete version does not add anything of note with regards to my point, the summary was sufficient IMO but I should have put a source.

 

[DownWest]

Earlier this year a friend was doing his transat. Not seen a vessel of any sort for well over a week, he exits the companion way to see a large ship directly behind them and on their course. The on watch crew had not looked behind for a while and was unaware of it. He grabbed the VHF and called, I think on 16, and judging by the reply, was sure the ship had not seen them. It then altered course and passed them. They had passive AIS, but the ship was not transmitting, so no alarm went off.

 

[geem]

Having been out in the Atlantic with our AIS transponder switched on and had a large tanker bear down on us from behind, you need to be careful with AIS. Large ships don't always seem to use it in the ocean. However, the AIS is great to be able to identify the name of the ship and then use the VHF to radio them up. We did this. The ship didn't respond to the VHF but they did do an immediate course change to avoid us.