VHF course help

[SaltyC]

BUT the RYA from memory, had to alter the course to satisfy the EU?

 

[st599]

BUT the RYA from memory, had to alter the course to satisfy the EU?

No they didn't.

As I've just written above, the course syllabus is set at a European level by CEPT (not an EU body) based on international requirements published by the ITU (a UN body). The German government complained that the RYA were ignoring the requirements in the UN publication and the CEPT agreed.

 

[Mark-1]

Plenty of clubs are still RTCs. I doubt the RYA has “pushed to take away” any training from clubs which are willing to run them properly.

Not so IME. Clubs that are RTCs are really struggling for volunteers, and the barrier is the vast amount of training time to volunteer, just to help out.

It's crippling.

 

[Mark-1]

It's a requirement under Article S47 of the ITU Radio Regulations - 47.1 mandates the requirement for training, 47.24 mandates the certificates allowed for non-SOLAS vessels, 47.27 references the documents that give the detailed requirements for long range and short range certificates. This is ITU Resolution 343 (SRC being the bits of the LRC syllabus required in sea area A1).

A General knowledge of radiocommunications in the maritime mobile service
A.1 The general principles and basic features of the maritime mobile service.
B Detailed practical knowledge and ability to use radio equipment
B.1 The VHF radio installation. Use of VHF equipment in practice.
B.2 The MF/HF radio installation. Use of MF/HF equipment in practice.
B.3 Purpose and use of digital selective calling facilities and techniques.
C Operational procedures of the GMDSS and detailed practical operation of GMDSS
subsystems and equipment
C.1 Basic introduction to GMDSS procedures.
C.2 Distress, urgency and safety communication procedures in the GMDSS.
C.3 Distress, urgency and safety communication procedures by radiotelephony in the old
distress and safety system.
C.4 Protection of distress frequencies.
C.5 Maritime safety information (MSI) systems in the GMDSS.
C.6 Alerting and locating signals in the GMDSS.
C.7 Procedures for cancelling an inadvertent false alert transmission.
D Operational procedures and regulations for radiotelephone communications
D.1 Ability to exchange communications relevant to the safety of life at sea.
D.2 Regulations, obligatory procedures and practices.
D.3 Practical and theoretical knowledge of radiotelephone procedures.
D.4 Use of the international phonetic alphabet and, where appropriate, parts of the IMO
Standard Marine Communication Phrases.
E Optional examination module for the maritime mobile-satellite service for vessels
not subject to a compulsory fit
E.1 The general principles and basic features of the maritime mobile-satellite service.
E.2 Operational procedures and detailed practical operation of ship earth stations in the
GMDSS.

For pleasure vessels in Europe, the syllabus and examination tailored to ITU Region 1 is published by CEPT (not ETSI, sorry) in ERC REC. 31-04. The RYA has an authority from MCA to examine against that syllabus. The RYA does not have any ability to alter the syllabus or examination unilaterally.

None of that says anything about the reason being interference.

....and the ITU Radio Regulations allow administrations to decide how licensing is implemented domestically. - America is also signed up to the ITU and they don't bother with licenses domestically.

 

[Biggles Wader]

Deja vu all over again.

 

[dgadee]

None of that says anything about the reason being interference.

....and the ITU Radio Regulations allow administrations to decide how licensing is implemented domestically. - America is also signed up to the ITU and they don't bother with licenses domestically.

You can have a syllabus but how you test it is up to nation states. You don't have to make a song and dance about a relatively simple form of communication. The RYA does.

 

[st599]

None of that says anything about the reason being interference.

....and the ITU Radio Regulations allow administrations to decide how licensing is implemented domestically. - America is also signed up to the ITU and they don't bother with licenses domestically.

The entire raison d'etre of the radio regs is to prevent interference.

From the pre-amble

The main objective of the Radio Regulations (RR) is to prevent harmful interference between stations. ITU members are bound to apply the provisions of the RR for all stations under their responsibility. All stations must be established and operated in such a manner as not to cause harmful interference to stations of other Members which operate in accordance with the RR.

While it is true that spectrum management is a sovereign matter for each Member, the fact remains that radio waves are able to cross borders. In order to avoid harmful interference, it is necessary to coordinate the use of radio-frequency spectrum at the borders.

The procedure for solving the problems of harmful interference is indicated in Section VI of Article 15 of the RR. In case of harmful interference, full particulars relating to the case shall be given using the form indicated in Appendix 10 of the RR. Please note that infringements of the Constitution, Convention or Radio Regulations shall be reported using the form indicated in Appendix 9 of the RR.

Administrations shall cooperate in the detection and elimination of harmful interference. Where practicable, the case of harmful interference may be dealt with directly by their monitoring stations or between the operators. If the direct contacts do not enable to resolve the harmful interference, the concerned administration may request the assistance of the BR.

Harmful Interference / Infringement


The US don't require VHF licences where they are too far from an international border to cause interference. If you travel internationally or from a location that can cause intereference - you have to do the full course, FCC don't allow the SRC.

As we're within the propogation distance of France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Eire, Denmark, Norway etc. that's not an option the UK has under the Radio Regulations.

 

[ylop]

You can have a syllabus but how you test it is up to nation states. You don't have to make a song and dance about a relatively simple form of communication. The RYA does.

More boring than Neeves in an anchor thread.

 

[ylop]

Not so IME. Clubs that are RTCs are really struggling for volunteers, and the barrier is the vast amount of training time to volunteer, just to help out.

It's crippling.

I don’t disagree clubs struggle for volunteer capacity - the same is true of many sports. But the suggestion is that the RYA were intentionally pushing away clubs from running training. I’ve seen clubs train volunteers who then go and get paid work and aren’t available any more. I’ve seen clubs get coaching funding that can only be used to train coaches not instructors. (Same issue in a number of sports - fundamentally a gov / SportEngland thing chasing medals). But are the RYA trying to stop clubs from being RTCs to help professional schools do better? I very much doubt it.

 

[dgadee]

More boring than Neeves in an anchor thread.

Bored by views you don't agree with? Your life must be so frustrating!

 

[ylop]

Bored by views you don't agree with? Your life must be so frustrating!

No, bored that every time the question of the internationally recognised qualification comes up the same people have the same opinion based rant and lay the blame squarely at the RYA’s door but in the meantime do nothing to lobby the RYA, MCA, Offcom, their MP etc to actually get the change they claim to crave (or at least to understand the true facts about what is or is not possible). It tells me you enjoy moaning more than you actually want the issue solved.

 

[dgadee]

No, bored that every time the question of the internationally recognised qualification comes up the same people have the same opinion based rant and lay the blame squarely at the RYA’s door but in the meantime do nothing to lobby the RYA, MCA, Offcom, their MP etc to actually get the change they claim to crave (or at least to understand the true facts about what is or is not possible). It tells me you enjoy moaning more than you actually want the issue solved.

Give us a vote!

 

[dgadee]

Actually, people do vote. They vote not to bother getting a licence

 

[Mark-1]

But the suggestion is that the RYA were intentionally pushing away clubs from running training.

If piling needless overhead on volunteers doesn’t drive clubs away from offering affordable training, what would!

 

[ylop]

If piling needless overhead on volunteers doesn’t drive clubs away from offering affordable training, what would!

The word I’ve put in bold is where the disconnect comes. In isolation I don’t think you could look a parent, coroner, jury, in the face and say “that course (or any other process) is completely unnecessary to safely take young people on the water”. Trying to get people from no quals to “instructor” level quickly is a major time commitment (probably less so for VHF course!). There may be issues where they aren’t accrediting prior learning sufficiently - that is a common issue between sport governing bodies. There are bits of all sports instructor / coaching courses which I am sure could be delivered more efficiently if students were willing to sacrifice flexibility which usually is a bigger barrier to uptake.

What is the minimum training that you want people to have to take your children out and teach them to sail? What about to issue certificates which have some degree of meaning (might let you rent a dinghy without supervision, give you access to instructor courses etc)? You’ve done the courses, did everyone on those courses seem like they were coasting through? Have you ever gone to a course (not necessarily an RYA one) and thought how the hell did someone sign this instructor off? Or visited another club where experienced people were doing stuff that felt a bit ropey/dodgy compared to what your club do?

 

[dgadee]

I was involved with a kayak club which did frequent training (adults, or children if their parent came too) for free on a continual basis. Most weeks, in fact, with swimming pool and outdoor. We put many people through the basics and onto more complicated waters.

Compare with a sailing club in the Forth when I moved over here. I asked whether they would take the crew out and show her the basics of sail setting (she doesn't listen to me - she was a teacher and her communication is basically one way). Yes, they said, but she will have to do a full RYA course. They told me how much and where to find the form. I left the club immediately - it seemed to see itself as an agent for the RYA. That is surely an example of needless overhead. They certainly drove me away.

 

[lustyd]

every time the question of the internationally recognised qualification comes up

It didn’t! I’ve no idea how this discussion started when all I asked was if anyone knew how to book the bloody exam

 

[st599]

It didn’t! I’ve no idea how this discussion started when all I asked was if anyone knew how to book the bloody exam

The exam is booked centrally by an RTC and has a fixed fee (£76, I think). Problem is the prerequisite is a course completion certificate (or a related certificate such as the SOLAS Restricted Operator Certificate, aviation VHF operator etc.)

 

[lustyd]

The exam is booked centrally by an RTC and has a fixed fee (£76, I think). Problem is the prerequisite is a course completion certificate (or a related certificate such as the SOLAS Restricted Operator Certificate, aviation VHF operator etc.)

I don’t know what RTC is. How do I as a person go about booking an exam after doing an online course?
The exam fee may well be fixed but they all seem to charge for extras on top

 

[Mark-1]

I was involved with a kayak club which did frequent training (adults, or children if their parent came too) for free on a continual basis. Most weeks, in fact, with swimming pool and outdoor. We put many people through the basics and onto more complicated waters.

My kids kayak and the kayak sessions are run at a massive ratio - perhaps 15:1. Volunteers aren't an issue because they just don't need many. I sense they are run to encourage kids into kayaking. Oddly the sailing club also offers kayaking and for that nobody requires qualifications at all they just go out for a paddle. Meanwhile the RYA stuff is constantly in jeopardy because it seems to be run mainly in order to divert lots of customers to sailing schools for instructor quals rather than to cheaply get people on the water. Of course it doesn't even work at generating business for sailing schools because so few people can afford the annual leave. It's just a massive handbrake on sailing.

I feel for balance I should point out that for the kids becoming an instructor is utterly supperb. They love it, they love the process, they love the certificates, they love the noddy title, they get something that looks good on their CV and they can usually get summer jobs. I also think it interests the girls far more than the boys, which is a good thing if you want to brainwash your daughter into having the same hobbies as you equality. So 10/10 to the RYA for that.