VAT not paid vessel post 31st December

[Indigoed]

If I was buying a non-vat paid vessel in EU27 as a UK resident after 31st December would I only have to pay any VAT if I was to leave the vessel in a EU27 country for more than 18 months or on returning the vessel to the UK?


Can find lots of views and guidance on VAT paid purchases but not so much on non VAT paid.

thanks

 

[Graham376]

After 31/12 as a non EU resident, you could keep the boat there for 18 months at a stretch but as a UK resident would have to pay VAT/Duty on arrival if brought to UK.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

At the moment brokers in Greece are informing g client to buy Vat not paid boats as we are exactly the same as Australian .New Zealand, Canada and Americans.

 

[Tony Cross]

After 31/12 as a non EU resident, you could keep the boat there for 18 months at a stretch but as a UK resident would have to pay VAT/Duty on arrival if brought to UK.

But after 18 months you only have to export it for one day - the EU rules don't specify how long it has to be out of the EU before being re-imported. In Greece those non-EU residents with non-VAT paid boats and thus an 18 month transit log, go across to Turkey for one night. They'll stay in a marina so they have proof of having exported the boat and then re-enter the EU with a new 18 month transit log again the next day. I don't see how it would be different for UK residents after the end of this year.

This does impact those seeking residency in an EU country to make movement within the EU easier. EU residents are not allowed to take advantage of the temporary importation rules that give you the 18 month transit log. (Note that the rules for the boat and the rules for the crew are different).

 

[Seven Spades]

What is a transit log exactly. Is it only used in Greece or will France start issuing them after Brexit?

 

[TSailors]

What is a transit log exactly. Is it only used in Greece or will France start issuing them after Brexit?

Turkey does for foreign-flagged boats. Googling it shows:

You will find a Transit Log issued when there is the possibility to enter foreign waters. It’s a port authority form that covers immigrations, customs and a check of the ships papers.

The most popular place for the issue of a transit log is in Turkey, where customers want the option to sail into Greece. With the close proximity of some amazing Greek Islands to Turkey, it comes as no surprise that most want to visit both countries.

Many countries have now dispensed with transit logs, yet the phrase is still common and has grown in meaning over time.

 

[Irish Rover]

What is a transit log exactly. Is it only used in Greece or will France start issuing them after Brexit?

Transit Log is the term which is commonly used but as far as the EU is concerned the process is generally referred to as TA - Temporary Admission. The following is a simple easy to understand explanatory note issued by the EU with links to the detailed provisions https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/rules_for_private_boats-faq_en.pdf
Applying for TA is very straightforward and can be done at the customs office in any port of entry and, in Greece at least, you don't need to use an agent. TA relates to the EU rather than individual countries so you can travel between EU countries without reapplying in each although you are required to report to the authorities on entering a new port.
As referenced by the previous poster [merhaba ve foruma hoş geldiniz] Turkey has a similar scheme. The transit log in Turkey lasts for 1 year but you can renew it annually for up to 5 years without leaving Turkey. At the end of the 5 years you just need to leave for a day and return to get a new transit log. In Turkey the application is made to the Harbour Masters Office in a port of entry but, as far as I know, all ports now require you to use an agent. Although I have no recent experience of it I believe you can get a temporary residence permit for a year in Turkey if you have a 12 month contract with a marina. Setur Marinas have 9 marinas in Turkey and one in Greece and if you have a 12 month contract in one of them you're entitled to 30 days free mooring in each of the others which is a very useful facility for cruisers.

 

[Tony Cross]

What is a transit log exactly. Is it only used in Greece or will France start issuing them after Brexit?

My only experience is in Greece, but as mentioned above by @Irish Rover, Temporary Importation, or Temporary Admission, is an EU wide procedure for non-EU residents on non-EU flagged boats. The boat is allowed to stay in the EU VAT free for up to 18 months. There is a provision to extend this for a further six months at the discretion of the host country. It's my understanding that Greece will do this if you simply ask.

One issue that cropped up in Greece a couple of years ago is where you have a non-EU flagged boat owned by a non-EU resident but which has EU resident crew on board. Greece at least was (and probably still is) of the opinion that because EU residents cannot use a non-VAT paid boat in EU waters, the presence of EU crew meant that the boat was not eligible for temporary importation and would be issued with a 30 day transit log, after which the boat would have to be exported from the EU permanently. At the time it was suggested the EU residents in this situation could be classified as passengers and not crew, on the basis that in that case they were not actually using the boat (in legal terms apparently). The problem then was that Greece said that these boats would then be treated as passenger vessels and subject to all the laws and regulations that govern passenger carrying vessels (which are onerous and extensive).

I suspect that this situation is not restricted to Greece and it means that post-Brexit, when UK boats apply for a temporary importation transit log into EU waters, the presence of an EU resident on the crew list might be a big problem (even having crew with an EU member state passport might raise questions). Leaving them off the crew list will be an equally big problem if that's found out. Calling them passengers might be the worst option of all.

 

[Irish Rover]

My only experience is in Greece, but as mentioned above by @Irish Rover, Temporary Importation, or Temporary Admission, is an EU wide procedure for non-EU residents on non-EU flagged boats. The boat is allowed to stay in the EU VAT free for up to 18 months. There is a provision to extend this for a further six months at the discretion of the host country. It's my understanding that Greece will do this if you simply ask.

One issue that cropped up in Greece a couple of years ago is where you have a non-EU flagged boat owned by a non-EU resident but which has EU resident crew on board. Greece at least was (and probably still is) of the opinion that because EU residents cannot use a non-VAT paid boat in EU waters, the presence of EU crew meant that the boat was not eligible for temporary importation and would be issued with a 30 day transit log, after which the boat would have to be exported from the EU permanently. At the time it was suggested the EU residents in this situation could be classified as passengers and not crew, on the basis that in that case they were not actually using the boat (in legal terms apparently). The problem then was that Greece said that these boats would then be treated as passenger vessels and subject to all the laws and regulations that govern passenger carrying vessels (which are onerous and extensive).

I suspect that this situation is not restricted to Greece and it means that post-Brexit, when UK boats apply for a temporary importation transit log into EU waters, the presence of an EU resident on the crew list might be a big problem (even having crew with an EU member state passport might raise questions). Leaving them off the crew list will be an equally big problem if that's found out. Calling them passengers might be the worst option of all.

My wife and I are the registered owners of our boat. We are EU passport holders but are resident outside the EU. We've never had a problem applying for TA in Greece although they do ask for proof of our residency in Turkey. My son who is resident in NI has been with us on a number of occasions listed on the crew list as crew but we've never been asked about his residency status. On one occasion he joined us mid cruise and we had to go to the Coast Guard (port police) to add him to the crew list and no questions were asked. Just our experience so doesn't prove someone else wouldn't have a problem. Luck of the Irish, maybe?

 

[Tony Cross]

My wife and I are the registered owners of our boat. We are EU passport holders but are resident outside the EU. We've never had a problem applying for TA in Greece although they do ask for proof of our residency in Turkey. My son who is resident in NI has been with us on a number of occasions listed on the crew list as crew but we've never been asked about his residency status. On one occasion he joined us mid cruise and we had to go to the Coast Guard (port police) to add him to the crew list and no questions were asked. Just our experience so doesn't prove someone else wouldn't have a problem. Luck of the Irish, maybe?

I suspect that's the case. In Greece at least, much depends on which port police shift happens to be on duty when you visit them.

My example was based on a couple of real cases where people were denied a transit log because they had an EU resident on the crew list. It's just something else to be aware of.

 

[Irish Rover]

I suspect that's the case. In Greece at least, much depends on which port police shift happens to be on duty when you visit them.

My example was based on a couple of real cases where people were denied a transit log because they had an EU resident on the crew list. It's just something else to be aware of.

I had a look at my papers again and I note there is no section to fill in address or country of residence on the official Greek crew list. I've applied for Transit Logs in Preveza and Pythagoria with my wife, my daughter, my NI resident son and me on board all of us with Irish passports and I've only ever been asked about my own residency status. My son also joined us mid cruise in Paros and he was added to the the crew list without question.
I really don't think this is an issue people should be concerned about as long as the owner is onboard and can prove his/her residency status.

 

[Tony Cross]

I had a look at my papers again and I note there is no section to fill in address or country of residence on the official Greek crew list. I've applied for Transit Logs in Preveza and Pythagoria with my wife, my daughter, my NI resident son and me on board all of us with Irish passports and I've only ever been asked about my own residency status. My son also joined us mid cruise in Paros and he was added to the the crew list without question.
I really don't think this is an issue people should be concerned about as long as the owner is onboard and can prove his/her residency status.

I'd agree that it's not something that anyone needs to loose sleep over, but two Australian boats a few years ago ran into exactly this problem, so it's not impossible you might encounter it. It's just something else to be aware of. Forewarned is forearmed.

 

[nortada]

My only experience is in Greece, but as mentioned above by @Irish Rover, Temporary Importation, or Temporary Admission, is an EU wide procedure for non-EU residents on non-EU flagged boats. The boat is allowed to stay in the EU VAT free for up to 18 months. There is a provision to extend this for a further six months at the discretion of the host country. It's my understanding that Greece will do this if you simply ask.

One issue that cropped up in Greece a couple of years ago is where you have a non-EU flagged boat owned by a non-EU resident but which has EU resident crew on board. Greece at least was (and probably still is) of the opinion that because EU residents cannot use a non-VAT paid boat in EU waters, the presence of EU crew meant that the boat was not eligible for temporary importation and would be issued with a 30 day transit log, after which the boat would have to be exported from the EU permanently. At the time it was suggested the EU residents in this situation could be classified as passengers and not crew, on the basis that in that case they were not actually using the boat (in legal terms apparently). The problem then was that Greece said that these boats would then be treated as passenger vessels and subject to all the laws and regulations that govern passenger carrying vessels (which are onerous and extensive).

I suspect that this situation is not restricted to Greece and it means that post-Brexit, when UK boats apply for a temporary importation transit log into EU waters, the presence of an EU resident on the crew list might be a big problem (even having crew with an EU member state passport might raise questions). Leaving them off the crew list will be an equally big problem if that's found out. Calling them passengers might be the worst option of all.

Sounds all very Greek like to me.

Some EU countries are so laid back that they wouldn't know a TL if it fell on them!

I suspect post Brexit, very little will change, cruising in these countries.

Despite the EU, over recent years individual EU countries attitudes toward foreign boats and crews has been very different and this divergence will only continue post Brexit; may get even wider. The result will be the 'friendlier countries' will get the biggest share of the market and corresponding revenue.

One problem these more laid-back countries may have, is presenting a common policy and keeping their more zealous officials in line.

 

[Tony Cross]

Sounds all very Greek like to me.

Some EU countries are so laid back that they wouldn't know a TL if it fell on them!

I suspect post Brexit, very little will change, cruising in these countries.

Despite the EU, over recent years individual EU countries attitudes toward foreign boats and crews has been very different and this divergence will only continue post Brexit; may get even wider. The result will be the 'friendlier countries' will get the biggest share of the market and corresponding revenue.

One problem these more laid-back countries may have, is presenting a common policy and keeping their more zealous officials in line.

I certainly hope so. The trouble, as you'll all know, is that whilst Greece wants to be a country that welcomes cruising sailors from the UK, the port police/coastguard are a little empire all of their own. We all know from experience that they're not always singing from the same hymn sheet as the Greek government!

 

[Chris_Robb]

I'd agree that it's not something that anyone needs to loose sleep over, but two Australian boats a few years ago ran into exactly this problem, so it's not impossible you might encounter it. It's just something else to be aware of. Forewarned is forearmed.

Tony, most of the problems came from Kos, though Rhodes has a similar reputation.

 

[AndrewB]

I have no proof that VAT was ever paid on my UK originated yacht, which has kept in Greece for the last 15 years. I bought it on the understanding that sooner or later I would be asked about it and might be obliged to pay. I've been in and out of Greece and all the surrounding countries, EU and non-EU, many times. Mostly through Corfu or Kos. A load of paperwork throughout, all sorts of dues to pay, not least the Greek cruising tax, which has twice been spot-checked. But VAT has never once been mentioned.

Maybe the authorities will now wake up to UK registered yachts, but in the mean time I'm for letting sleeping dogs lie.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I have no proof that VAT was ever paid on my UK originated yacht, which has kept in Greece for the last 15 years. I bought it on the understanding that sooner or later I would be asked about it and might be obliged to pay. I've been in and out of Greece and all the surrounding countries, EU and non-EU, many times. Mostly through Corfu or Kos. A load of paperwork throughout, all sorts of dues to pay, not least the Greek cruising tax, which has twice been spot-checked. But VAT has never once been mentioned.

Maybe the authorities will now wake up to UK registered yachts, but in the mean time I'm for letting sleeping dogs lie.

Andrew - Come January 1st 2021 in Greece we will all need to get a Transit Log. If you can prove you paid VAT you will get an UNLIMITED TL, if not you revert to Temp Admission - for 18 months - the Greeks are happy for you to sail into international waters - so 12 miles ---- dont argue with them about where Turkish waters start! and come back - no need what so ever tio go some where over night and come back with a marina receipt. Members of the CA can down load the advice in English and Greek if they want to present it to Customs - Just dont expect anything sensible fro KOS!

 

[AndrewB]

Andrew - Come January 1st 2021 in Greece we will all need to get a Transit Log. If you can prove you paid VAT you will get an UNLIMITED TL, if not you revert to Temp Admission - for 18 months - the Greeks are happy for you to sail into international waters - so 12 miles ---- dont argue with them about where Turkish waters start! and come back - no need what so ever tio go some where over night and come back with a marina receipt. Members of the CA can down load the advice in English and Greek if they want to present it to Customs - Just dont expect anything sensible fro KOS!

Thanks ... I missed that.

 

[Tony Cross]

Andrew - Come January 1st 2021 in Greece we will all need to get a Transit Log. If you can prove you paid VAT you will get an UNLIMITED TL, if not you revert to Temp Admission - for 18 months - the Greeks are happy for you to sail into international waters - so 12 miles ---- dont argue with them about where Turkish waters start! and come back - no need what so ever tio go some where over night and come back with a marina receipt. Members of the CA can down load the advice in English and Greek if they want to present it to Customs - Just dont expect anything sensible fro KOS!

Whilst this is perfectly true, you're always at risk of meeting the Greek official who missed his coffee this morning and fell over the dog on his way down the stairs, he may well ask you to prove that you've been out of EU waters. Printing your GPS track (if you can) will be useful, even taking a photo of your plotter (inc data and time info) my suffice. I would suggest you need to have some 'proof' that you have actually left EU waters just in case.

 

[Irish Rover]

Whilst this is perfectly true, you're always at risk of meeting the Greek official who missed his coffee this morning and fell over the dog on his way down the stairs, he may well ask you to prove that you've been out of EU waters. Printing your GPS track (if you can) will be useful, even taking a photo of your plotter (inc data and time info) my suffice. I would suggest you need to have some 'proof' that you have actually left EU waters just in case.

President Erdoğan says anywhere 12 miles east of Athens is outside EU jurisdiction ?