VAT nightmare

[Crisby]

Chris from day one some have gone on and on about resident being a way of getting around 90/180 rule some where suggesting in the early days that residence will give you free movement thought-out the EU shouting down anyone who didn't agree with then and they still doing it .
My option as always been that residence is fine if that what you want to do , live in one country but to use it to get over the 90/180 rule could and probably will back fire .
Whats happening in Greece doesn't surprise me and maybe if it turn out there are breaking some kind of EU rule it maybe over turned,
But I doubt that be the end of it , countries are looking at ways at making money after covid so it wouldn't surprise me if in year or so they want resident with boats to reflag under that country and pay agents and taxes which are involved as well as abiding by all of that country rules concerning the boat.
These countries are not stupid they know while people who don't have property in said country are using marinas address for application to become resident.

I think most people who took residency in a Schengen country now realise that they can only stay past 90 days in that one country but despite the assurances of the withdrawal agreement the goal posts seem to have changed. For instance our first season onboard in 2019 we registered as temporarily resident in Greece as we were required to do if staying longer than 90 days, no minimum annual stay was ever mentioned and our address was a Greek bay, no marina address or contract required.

That’s all we wanted and the withdrawal agreement was supposed to maintain that. We have plans to go to a lot of places other than the EU but some people want to stay put in one place long term and now find the goal posts have moved, although I think in Greece it’s not just the goalposts that have moved but different islands are playing different games!! I think some of it is a language/translation issue but VAT issues on top of everything else is a bit of a bummer.

On the plus side for us it might be forcing our hand to retire a bit earlier on a smaller budget and head west with our UK vat receipt buried in amongst the rest of the paperwork that no body ever asks to see!

I don’t envy the OPs predicament and think I would find a different boat or wait until things settle if the boat is still then available which I tend to think it would be..

Chris

 

[sailaboutvic]

I read the OP a few times so it sink in and do correct me if I'm wrong .
The OP want to buy a boat which is in Greece and by the sounds of things he has a LT log in Greece ...
So where the problem, as long as the boat not been in the EU longer then 18 months ,
if there a issue buying it in Greece owner sails it out of Greece ! Doesnt have to be Turkey , boat still within its 18 month deal done , the OP say his a UK citizen, he intidal to have an non EU vat boat , just mean he need to move it every 18 months .
If on the other hand the boat has overstayed the 18 months then its up to the owner to get it out of the EU before the deal an be done .
I think the op first port of call is to find out if the boat have over stayed .
It don't have to be a vat night mare .
No one has advise him to ask to see the TL , surprised

 

[Crisby]

I read the OP a few times so it sink in and do correct me if I'm wrong .
The OP want to buy a boat which is in Greece and by the sounds of things he has a LT log in Greece ...
So where the problem, as long as the boat not been in the EU longer then 18 months ,
if there a issue buying it in Greece owner sails it out of Greece ! Doesnt have to be Turkey , boat still within its 18 month deal done , the OP say his a UK citizen, he intidal to have an non EU vat boat , just mean he need to move it every 18 months .
If on the other hand the boat has overstayed the 18 months then its up to the owner to get it out of the EU before the deal an be done .
I think the op first port of call is to find out if the boat have over stayed .
It don't have to be a vat night mare .
No one has advise him to ask to see the TL , surprised

Must admit I’m not familiar with the term ‘US Flagged Transit Status’ other than it is US flagged. Although it has been in a Greek marina for ‘a considerable time’ so may well have overstayed as has been suggested. Nothing is straightforward anymore.........sigh.

Chris

 

[Irish Rover]

I read the OP a few times so it sink in and do correct me if I'm wrong .
The OP want to buy a boat which is in Greece and by the sounds of things he has a LT log in Greece ...
So where the problem, as long as the boat not been in the EU longer then 18 months ,
if there a issue buying it in Greece owner sails it out of Greece ! Doesnt have to be Turkey , boat still within its 18 month deal done , the OP say his a UK citizen, he intidal to have an non EU vat boat , just mean he need to move it every 18 months .
If on the other hand the boat has overstayed the 18 months then its up to the owner to get it out of the EU before the deal an be done .
I think the op first port of call is to find out if the boat have over stayed .
It don't have to be a vat night mare .
No one has advise him to ask to see the TL , surprised

See my post #13 which includes the following "The seller should be able to give you details of the transit log status. When I got details I emailed the customs authorities in the local port Preveza and they confirmed the status for me. If the seller doesn't give you this info then beware."

 

[superheat6k]

Might be worth checking out the information on the RYA web site. If you cannot find an answer, then if you are member, you can ask the legal department for a legal opinion on what you should do if you decide this is the boat for you. You will have to sort out all the necessary paperwork and probably pay the VAT, so this cheap boat will have to be hugely cheaper than usual.

As already mentioned this boat would already have been a problem purchase before Brexit, but now has the 90 day limit in any 180 day moving period. You may find the advice of walk away is still the best option as there are plenty of boats for sale in the Med.

I would not rely upon the RYA for VAT advice. When I imported a boat from Jersey the advice provided re VAT was plain wrong. HMRC Small craft unit gave accurate advice, but we aware the blips on their radar take a long time to fade !

 

[Jmc1764]

What is to stop the buyer just buying the boat and sailing it back to the Uk, Mooring up and doing whatever he wants on the boat. How are HMC going to a) know he imported the boat b) if the boat is VAT payed or not c) who is going to check ?

 

[sailaboutvic]

What is to stop the buyer just buying the boat and sailing it back to the Uk, Mooring up and doing whatever he wants on the boat. How are HMC going to a) know he imported the boat b) if the boat is VAT payed or not c) who is going to check ?

Oh dear wait for it ....

 

[Tranona]

What is to stop the buyer just buying the boat and sailing it back to the Uk, Mooring up and doing whatever he wants on the boat. How are HMC going to a) know he imported the boat b) if the boat is VAT payed or not c) who is going to check ?

Firstly, the OP has no intention of sailing the boat to the UK - it is in Greece and he wants to live on it there, or cruise around the Med.

You should be aware that it is a legal requirement to notify customs when you enter UK waters and declare if you have any goods that are being imported, including your boat, then pay any duty and VAT due. Failure to do so is a criminal offence. For the boat in the original question you will also need to show that it complies with the UK RCD other wise it cannot be imported at all.

What will stop the buyer is his attitude to the law and his willingness to risk being caught and potentially getting a criminal record and losing his boat.

In the past the risk may well have been low, but because of Brexit which creates borders which have not existed for the last 30 years or so, HMRC and Border Force activity has been massively increased - you may have read about such matters in the papers!

 

[Bathdave]

It’s only money ...

it seems to me the current owner is the one with the biggest issue, that he has a potentially unsellable boat (because of the possible liability) which is costing him money to keep, and he’s a long way away and can’t use it...and he may have a VAT bill to pay if the boat has outstayed it’s exemption.

if I were in your shoes, and it was a boat I wanted, I would be making clear to the seller that there are tax issues and problems and make him an offer which puts you in a position that if there is a chunk of tax to pay, you have saved it in the price you paid, and put the cash you haven’t paid him into an account to discharge any tax bill that you can’t negotiate or organise transits to avoid. ...you may find he is glad to get the boat away and save himself a Greek VAt bill !

the point is you could turn this to your advantage

you haven’t made clear whether you plan to live aboard in the med or bring the boat back to the UK to live on, which I think is also pertinent to how much and where VAT may fall due

as others have made clear living aboard in the med is rather more of a challenge post brexit, nothing to do with VAT

 

[sailaboutvic]

considerable time.
Thats the OP words , Are we talking 1 year ? 16 months?
I have a problem understand how people go about buying stuff , surly he needs to find out how long the boat been in the EU , end off if the seller or broker can't provide that info there a problem .
Would I walk away as seen to be the advise from some , no , if he really like the boat then negotiate on the price .

Also Bathdave said that living aboard in the med is more challenge now and his right but it can still be done with a bit of plainning .

 

[[70521]]

What is to stop the buyer just buying the boat and sailing it back to the Uk, Mooring up and doing whatever he wants on the boat. How are HMC going to a) know he imported the boat b) if the boat is VAT payed or not c) who is going to check ?

We had Border Force tour the marina yesterday morning.

AIS was invented to track ships, we use Class B and the same data is now available for government agencies about the movement of vessels.

I am in the process of renewing my SSR Part III registration, far more information is needed this time.

It is now a requirement to check in and out of the UK.

You may enjoy the element of risk of just sailing a boat back to the UK and your lovely boat being seized, personally I prefer to tread on the right side of the law.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

We had Border Force tour the marina yesterday morning.

AIS was invented to track ships, we use Class B and the same data is now available for government agencies about the movement of vessels.

I am in the process of renewing my SSR Part III registration, far more information is needed this time.

It is now a requirement to check in and out of the UK.

You may enjoy the element of risk of just sailing a boat back to the UK and your lovely boat being seized, personally I prefer to tread on the right side of the law.

I'm curious. I just registered Capricious on the SSR, and was amazed at how LITTLE information was required, especially given what I'd read on here about them having become careful about residence requirements etc.. No strong proof of identity or citizenship was required, no strong proof of residence, and the Bill of Sale I presented (and which was accepted) was the one sent to me PRIOR to the sale going through - without any signatures. As far as I could see, it would be very easy to fake it all up! I don't see how they could ever have required much less information.

And yes, I did it because I too am cautious about staying on the right side of the law, especially when I plan trips to the continent.

 

[sailaboutvic]

If people will use AIS then expect to get tracked .
We leave AIS where it belongs , on shop self

 

[[70521]]

I'm curious. I just registered Capricious on the SSR, and was amazed at how LITTLE information was required, especially given what I'd read on here about them having become careful about residence requirements etc.. No strong proof of identity or citizenship was required, no strong proof of residence, and the Bill of Sale I presented (and which was accepted) was the one sent to me PRIOR to the sale going through - without any signatures. As far as I could see, it would be very easy to fake it all up! I don't see how they could ever have required much less information.

And yes, I did it because I too am cautious about staying on the right side of the law, especially when I plan trips to the continent.

I'm doing it online, Photo ID, copy of the Bill of Sale and a copy of the current SSR certificate. I don't recall any of that five years ago. When I purchased the boat I just said I needed to re-register the SSR number on the transom in my name, did not even have the certificate in my hands, kerching and cash passed, job done.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I'm doing it online, Photo ID, copy of the Bill of Sale and a copy of the current SSR certificate. I don't recall any of that five years ago. When I purchased the boat I just said I needed to re-register the SSR number on the transom in my name, did not even have the certificate in my hands, kerching and cash passed, job done.

Yes, I too did it online. Doesn't everyone, these days?

 

[Flyer295]

If I pick up this boat in Greece and the log is held by customs as being laid up for all this time then VAT does not have to be paid until I retrieve the log from Customs and the 90 days has expired. Is that correct ?

If so what happens if stay, well let's say for a couple of weeks to check everything out in Greece Then I sail to Italy then France then onto Spain etc, taking 9 -12 months or more to do it, would all these EU countries count toward this 90/180. In other words is cumulative time, or is it each individual country that has the 90/180 rule so I could spend upto 90 days in each country ?

 

[sailaboutvic]

If I pick up this boat in Greece and the log is held by customs as being laid up for all this time then VAT does not have to be paid until I retrieve the log from Customs and the 90 days has expired. Is that correct ?

If so what happens if stay, well let's say for a couple of weeks to check everything out in Greece Then I sail to Italy then France then onto Spain etc, taking 9 -12 months or more to do it, would all these EU countries count toward this 90/180. In other words is cumulative time, or is it each individual country that has the 90/180 rule so I could spend upto 90 days in each country ?

Its 90 days over all Schengen countries
Clock start as soon as your in the EU , other words if say you fly into Greece on 1st July the clock start then .

 

[Flyer295]

So how do you get round this. Almost the whole of the Northern Med is EU. There are a couple of exceptions in the Aegean and most of north Africa is a NO NO. Or is it.

 

[Irish Rover]

If I pick up this boat in Greece and the log is held by customs as being laid up for all this time then VAT does not have to be paid until I retrieve the log from Customs and the 90 days has expired. Is that correct ?

If so what happens if stay, well let's say for a couple of weeks to check everything out in Greece Then I sail to Italy then France then onto Spain etc, taking 9 -12 months or more to do it, would all these EU countries count toward this 90/180. In other words is cumulative time, or is it each individual country that has the 90/180 rule so I could spend upto 90 days in each country ?

You are mixing apples and oranges here. As I said previously the 90/180 rule has nothing to do with the boat.
If the current transit log is still valid then you can apply for a new transit log which will be for 18 months duration.
You on the other hand will be limited to 90 days in any 180 in the Schengen area.
Buy the boat and come to Turkey for a few months.

 

[Flyer295]

Thanks for the invite. I see what you mean. So basically I pay all this money for something I can only use for half the time. Bit of a bummer if I want to live on it.