Valid arguments against Beneteau?

I don't remember mentioning Flat Sections anywhere in my posts - so I'm not sure where you get that from.

It is some time since I read the posting but IIRC the AWB suffered signifcant damage (not necessarily structural) whereas no such damage was reported on the HR.

Yes I know I am generalising - but do you dispute my primary thesis?

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"I seem to recall a very good posting on this board a few months ago from someone trying (and failing) to get an AWB to the ARC start when they hit unexpectedly heavy weather. "

Was this a crew thing or a boat failing?

I remember Feeling using in its publicity a well-known delivery skipper being caught in a hurricane in a Feeling 10,40. It came through it with no breakages whatsoever.

John

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Sybarite on 05/07/2004 15:15 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
Re: Taxi!!!

Poppycock!! They are mostly E Class Mercs that fill the taxi ranks. In Germany, it's fascinating to sit in the back of what appears to be a pretty new Merc taxi, only to find it has 300/400,000 km on the clock. No squeaks, no rattles, and taught as a drum. Ask the taxi drivers why they chose Merc, and they will all point to it's reliability under high mileage use - if their cars are off the road they are not earning. Opel/Ford taxis at 100,000 km + are full of whines, grating diffs, rattles and squeaks. I used to go every week, and covered many miles in the towns and autobahns in them - the difference was stark.

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IIRC the boat suffered some non-structural damage. However as I said earlier, I am sure these boats are capable of taking anything the weather can throw at them, but in my experience they make more demands on the crew than a heavier weight design.

Ultimately safety is more about the crew and their state of mind than the boat in which they are sailing - a boat which makes greater demands on its crew, either by requiring more active handling or because it is less comfortable, will reduce the efficiency of the crew and so be less safe than a more "traditional" design.

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"however they use a box section inner strenghtening lattice which is only glued and not glassed in to the hull."

Michel Joubert, IMO France's best naval architect, has designed his own aluminium boat for high latitude sailing. All the bulkheads and all the windows are glued - only.

John

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I remember it rather well (!!) - the Jeanneau was one of only 6 boats that survived the Straits of Gibraltar, 3 returning with damage (mainly to rigging). The Jeanneau in question suffered badly from slamming, which did not do actual structural damage to the hull, but did dislodge some of the foreward cabin furniture bonding, which merely required rebonding in. The boat was very heavily laden though, and the conditions VERY severe. We never actually felt in danger of it falling apart. There was other boats suffering similar problems including Hallberg Rasseys, Najads, Farrs etc - as I say, the conditions were very severe, and all were subject to slamming.

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For what it's worth..
Having owned various jeanneau boats from 30 to 37 feet I always thought they were excellent value and they sailed safely and well. No bits fell off although the 32 footer I had was lightly built compared to the older (1995) 37 Sun Oddesy.

I sold the 37 and bought a HR 42. More chores to do to keep her up together because she is a much older boat.

As for which is better - well on the scuttlebutt cruise to Cherbourg I'd have turned round south of Bembridge on the night we went . the 37 would have slammed and banged all night enough to shake the crews teeth .. The Hallberg - smooth as you like, one particular crew mwmber slept all the way there - emerging the next morning to ask had it been rough.

Make your own judgement - sail both type before you buy..I'm sure owners of both "types" will offer you a ride out..

Ian



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I should also have said....

.....that the main reason for diverting to Casablanca was not due to anything caused by the first storm, but the forecast of an even bigger one due to hit within 24 hours. Also, the engine was bust, and it was felt under all the circumstances (including some inexperienced crewmembers) it was better to head for safety some 40 miles away, rather than take another severe beating. One very large yacht decided to continue, and had a very bad time of it, so in spite of our problems in Casablanca caused by beaurocracy, we did the right thing.

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I think you are referring to shape rather than construction. If you had taken a Beneteau Idylle 13m50 (Frers), I'm sure you would have had the same ride. And second hand, you can get one of these for £50 -60k.

John.

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Re: Taxi!!!

I was in an Audi A6 taxi being driven by a little old dear who could hardly see over the wheel. She sat at a steady 200kph on the Autobahn. I remarked that with 200000 km on the clock that she would soon be changing it. She replied that she changed the previous one when it had nearly 900000 km on the clock...

John.

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But aluminium

Tends to be less flexible than GRP and, to support your point, glueing is widely used in the aerospace industry - and they aim for zero defects.

It actually results in a much stronger component, because of the lack of heat stressing and crystallisation at the weld interfaces.

The situation is potentially different with a laminate - it's not the gluing giving way - it's usually the sandwich material ot (in this case the surface delaminating).

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The M word

You used the M word and you've got me going. My own 'big' Mercedes may be classed as a luxury car but it sure ain't built like one. I've had endless probs with mine you shoud'nt have to put up with in a Lada and the dealers just dont care. As for taxis, the German taxi drivers I talk to tell me Mercs are definitely not built like they used to be and a lot of them are buying things like Hyundai's at half the price and half the hassle

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I think you are ok with a beneteau or a moody - trampling over the foredeck will not bust anything BUT you will find that you smash your head on the stick thing :-)

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Why is it...

...that on this forum, just about every post concerning AWB's ask questions in the negative. Why should it be "valid arguments AGAINST Beneteau's", and not "valid arguments FOR Beneteaus"?? Why is it also, that I don't remember seeing any post placed from the BenJenBav brigade of owners asking "Why on earth do people want to own slow, cheap, high maintenance and smelly old boats"?

Could it just be that the AWB owners are simply pleased with their purchases, and that they do not feel the need to come on saying how wonderful their boats are etc etc? They probably don't give a toss about ANY arguments for 25/30 year old "classics" one way or the other. A boat is chosen to suit the prospective owners own purpose, situation and preference. Whether that may mean old, middle aged or new, high maintenance or low maintenance, is surely immaterial to anyone else. In most cases, the decision is taken after a lot of thought and careful consideration. Whether someone else feels another persons boat is not the boat for them, is simply not important.

Incidentally, for our particular use, any of the modern, inexpensive (relatively anyway) production boats is fine. To answer the original question, there are very many arguments FOR Beneteaus, and very few (if any, for the average boat buyer)against.

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Re: Taxi!!!

Nearly every Taxi in Greece and a lot of Taxi's in Spain are NEW Mercs. Probably because they are reliable but certainly not because they are luxury..../forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

Actually, I'd say Mercs were less than average.....<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2004034afull.gif> See here for proof </A> /forums/images/icons/cool.gif
 
Re: Taxi!!!

I might have felt a bit nervous going at 200kph and watching 900,000km's come up on the clock! LOL

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Sorry I read 'flat' and you said 'fat', mea culpa!

Nicho has replied re the damage to the AWB he was on, see above posting. I'm sure if you ask him nicely he will send you a copy of his full report.

What is your primary thesis though? It seems to me that the idea is to start with the premise that anything other than certain 'acceptable' makes is crap and then set out to 'prove' the case with stories of failures. There are stories of 'failures' everywhere, about every kind of boat, you cannot use selected stories to prove or disprove an argument. There is a story of a rolled Swan 65 in Biscay does that mean Swan 65's should be off the approved list? I remember when Adfin's Rival sank in the Western Approaches, with the subsequent tragic loss of one crew member from the liferaft, does that make Rivals (I think it was a Rival 41) unsuitable?

I repeat what I have said oft times. Take each DESIGN on it's own merit, is that design a suitable compromise for what it's intended use is. It is wrong to say all Beneteaus (or others) are unsuited to long distance or heavy weather sailing, some may be and others may not. Size too is a big factor, which is better a Twister 28, Rival 34 or a Beneteau 47 to take out in bad weather? I know which I would go for and size does matter!

I'm trying to be open minded here, IMHO there is no one single solution to the question, too many compromises needing too many personal decisions. The article by Yachting World some while back was interesting, a direct boat for boat test of a Bowman 40 versus a Beneteau First 40.7 which I believe was pretty well half the price, so you could buy two (his and hers or one for here and one for the Caribbean?)

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Re: Careful Nicho

..you'll put your back out again!

Interesting though that Nicho owns a S-class Merc, sails a Bav and has experienced a pretty awful gale in a Benny - and still lives to tell the tale - I just hope the back complaint isn't related to the boat!

I've slept through a gale on my Bav - once on the pathfinder trip back from Cherbourg, the other in the forecabin going across Biscay. On this latter occasion it is true I did spend some time on the ceiling but slept very well most of the time. On the former occasion I was suffering from an overdose of Boots travel pills however.

There is an awful lot of tosh spoken about the supposed fragility of modern boats.Generally they are fine. If you want a lighter, faster more spacious boat then go for it Moose. If you want a slower heavier one, probably with less accomodation and certainly more cost, go for that. Provided I could still actively sail the boat, rather than having it static in the water taking everything the weather can chuck at it, I'd go for a light if slightly fat-arsed modern boat anytime.

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