Valid arguments against Beneteau?

[Moose]

I know that many peeps on here dislike Beneteaus for one reason or another. Over the past few weeks I have looked at quite a few of them and I cannot really find a valid argument against buying one. They are good value, they seem well put together and every owner I have spoken to has been very pleased with how they sail (I haven't sailed one, yet) You also seem to get excellent service from Beneteau in France which is more than can be said for some English Companies(I'm sure us Scots build boats so well they don't need after sales service)
So why don't people like them? Is it just that they are "new" and people don't like that, they would rather spend 8 months of the year varnishing a load of wood than sailing? /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

So what are the VALID, factual arguments agains Bennies? Do they really fall apart like some have said?

Having said that I am pretty keen on a Moody 40.

Sorry to everybody I have upset.


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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Because (and this is my reason) they ALL look the same, cut off length to suit.

Maybe Benno owners like the brand consistency but I think its windtunnel type coach roof and same windows on every model is just boring. I am sorry to any owners of Bennos, this is after all a very subjective view and I know before anyone jumps to attack my chosen vessel is not perfect by a long shot.

They reek of cars like fords, using same shaped lights etc. Focus vs. Fiesta same cars different but different size.

I do actually like the internals of bennos though, they all seem light and airy with maximum use of space. I think the problem arises is that they are built by a committee type scenario. We want a boat that is 34ft long that will sleep 8 (with a two ring burner/forums/images/icons/smile.gif) will have wheel steering* (so skip can feel like a South Atlantic racer) have a massive cockpit to sit humongous crew on small boat and still sail well in all conditions.

It is a lot to ask from any designer and in reality I guess the benno does what it says on the tin, it just doesn't have the same class as a short run boat like a moody or sweden or Hallberg Rassy etc.

All my personal opinion, you asked for that....

* I want a tiller, I hate sailing with a wheel, you lose the feel of the boat IMHO, but that could start a whole new thread!

Just realised you said 'valid', are asphetics valid in this argument?

Also.. I really like the big benno's, 45ft . Seem a different breed of boat.

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>

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<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Jools_of_Top_Cat on 05/07/2004 02:25 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[[3889]]

I think Julian is right. Bennys offer value for money, are functional and offer no status in yachty circles. They may not ride out a storm 10 as well as a contessa but in my experience 90% of boats never go out in anything over a 5. I've sailed my 32' benny through a gale 8, not the most comfortable experience but we lived to tell the tale. Bits are relativly easy to get.
Andy

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[Robin]

Most of the comments you will hear against these and other mass produced makes will be from people who have never owned and maybe never sailed one, pure prejudice IMHO. Every boat will have good and bad points be it in the design or the construction so I believe every one must be viewed in terms of it's suitability for YOU personally and what YOU want and expect from it. The analogy of the Ford versus a BMW or Mercedes is a case in point, most would prefer to own (and be seen to drive) the BMW or Mercedes but the Ford will still be well enough made, perform just as well in practice but may depreciate faster on resale and may not have the same snob value in the forum/club bar

Have you heard of a graveyard somewhere that collects all these boats that are supposed or expected to fall apart? Think how many millions have been built, all of these are still out there being happily sailed by someone!

As to sailing performance, you need to define what you want and expect because every boat is different. Beneteau offer a cruising range and a performance range of designs and both have very acceptable interiors, the racy Firsts can also be cruised and the cruisy Oceanis can also be raced. Read the test reports of the models you are interested in so perhaps you can narrow down the choice, then have a test sail yourself if you can. Moodys now make only biggish cruisers, there isn't a performance range but the cruisers perform adequately. I have friends with Moodys, they are well enough built and sail well enough too, no better nor no worse than any other cruising boat.



<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[AlexL]

"They reek of cars like fords"

I think you may have hit the nail on the head - beneteaus - like fords have a lot of people (usually non owner) turn their noses up at them , but mostly these are people who don't bother to check the figures. Do you know what the most reliable car manufacturer in Europe is? - yup its Ford, most people just ASSUME bad things and don't check the data. the least relaible european manufacturer? Mercedes.
You wouldn't expect this from listening to people, and I think boat manufacturers are the same, most is just assumption. I have looked seriously at some bennys of late and I have been very impressed with what I've seen.
Build quality is always going to be better and more consistend from a planned production style facility than it is from an ad-hoc hand built environment.
Perhaps they don't have the snob value of a rassy, or a najad - but then they cost less than half the price.
Besides one of the arguments often used on this forum against bennys and the like is the method of construction - however I was somewhat suprised, given the 'information' gleaned on this forum to find out the Jenneaus, and Bennys still make solid hulls with bonded in stringers, whereas Rassy use foam cored hulls (a pracitce oft criticised on cheaper boats) - go figure!

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[Robin]

Wheel versus tiller

Depends on the boat and the steering system Jools. Tiller is simple and direct but can be heavy & hard work and it does sweep a wide area of cockpit making that space unavailable for other legs. Wheel is more complicated but can be made to feel very light, still have 'feedback' and it takes less cockpit space at sea (but then more in harbour compared to a tiller folded away).

Personally after many years/boats with tillers our last boat had a wheel as does our latest one and I now prefer a wheel. Our current boat has a very big wheel which is fingertip light to handle yet has plenty of 'feel', I can stand behind the wheel or sit out by the rail and have full control in comfort.

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[KevB]

Taxi!!!

It's now only the BIG Mercedes which are classed as luxury cars. In most countries they are just Taxis.

 

[bedouin]

All boat designs are a compromise and different people have different priorities - so people who dislike Beneteaus tend to do so because they represent a different set of compromises.

In my experience a Beneteau is not a comfortable place to be in heavy weather. Specifically the cabin was not well designed for use when healed (e.g. too few hand holds, bilges too shallow) and the motion of the boat is not particularly comfortable (the forepeak earned the nickname "the washing machine" ). Over a period of time such discomforts considerably reduce the crew's ability - which in turn has a significant safety implication.

In terms of construction - they do flex a lot, and unimportant bits do seem to fall off but I would have no concerns about the boat's ability to handle the worst the weather can throw at it.

I believe that the majority of boat owners rarely spend more than 24 hours at sea at a stretch, and so are unlikely to be out in heavy weather in the first place, and are also unlikely to need to endure it too long. For people like that the problems with the Beneteau (and most AWBs) are likely to amount to minor discomfort rather than a serious safety issue.

If you are in the minority who expect to experience prolonged periods of heavy weather at sea, or to have to sail to windward in >F4 for more than about 24 hours then the issues are much more significant and IMHO can seriously impact safety.

NB I believe there were specific problems with the construction of some Beneteaux of the mid 80s that lead to them earning the nickname "Bendytoys" but I don't know the details.

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[BlueSkyNick]

Once again, I think it comes back to how you intend to use the boat.

Bennies and Jennies are marketed mainly for Med sailing and built accordingly, whereas Swedish boats for example are intended for Scandinavian/Baltic waters etc. Hence Bennies are lighter, more spacious, and built to a cheaper spec than Halberg Rassey, Najad etc.

So if you intend to be a fair weather sailor, the Benneteau will be fine. If you want to spend a lot of time living aboard, taking on what ever weather gets thrown at you, something heavier would be better.

Being a British boat, being part way between the Med and Scandanavia, a Moody is an excellent compromise. Their design, build quality, availability of local service (in the Solent) etc are an excellent combination and hence value. There is also a very active and helpful Owners Association.

I recognise and respect why others will be supportive of Benneteau for their own quite rational reasons. It all comes down to personal preference and budget, with relation to your own requirements.

<hr width=100% size=1>It's frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.

 

[charles_reed]

Personally I don\'t think there

are any.
Providing you recognise them for what they are.

Mass-market boats for occasional sailors who like the comforts of a marinised cottage on which to entertain their friends over a summer weekend.

As this covers about 80% of the cruising public they enjoy well-deserved popularity.

They're easy to sail, vice-free under sail and power, have a good light weather performance, ample accomodation, well-equipped galley and heads, QC is reasonable (and certainly better than a well-known UK builder).

They're very popular as charter boats so have a ready resale market.

A few have been used for round-the-world trips and many have successfully crossed oceans.
However they're proportionally under-represented in oceanic cruising, and almost unknown in high latitude sailing.

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[StugeronSteve]

As a benny and ford owner I can say with some confidence that I am pleased with the performance, build and value for moneyof both. I think Moose is looking for something a bit bigger than my 331, so my experiences may not apply. Although not for more than 24hrs at sea our boat as taken us to windward quite ably in a F7 and handled everything thrown at it. We took two first time at sea sailing friends on a trip to Poole recently with winds of F6 and, for a short time, F7, including a cracking 11knt surfing session. They both commented on how surprisingly safe and stable the boat felt (they had nothing to compare with, but had been a little nervous at the outset).

If you want a Rassy, have a Rassy, but if, like me, you don't want to / can't afford to spend that much dosh then you get a lot of boat for your cash with a Ben.



<hr width=100% size=1>Semper Bufo

 

[Chris_Robb]

Having sold my old heavy weight, I have been sailing a Bene 477 for most of this year. - Great sailing - good handling - but bloody hell do they slam in a sea. If you are doing a lot of open ocean pasages then I would go for something with a deeper forefoot, _ I couldn't put up with the worry about what the slamming was doing.

Bene construction method: They use solid laminates on the hull - good - however they use a box section inner strenghtening lattice which is only glued and not glassed in to the hull. If there has been a major grounding, progressive breakdown of this bond can take place which is almost inpossible for a surveyor to see in the early days. Make sure that when the boat is surveyed all its weight is put on to the keel to check any deflection. The owner may be blissfully unaware of the hidden problem.

Good luck.

PS - my next boat will be an AWB because SWMBO does not want to do any offshore stuff - so space rather than seakeeping will be the criteria.




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[jimi]

As a Bennie owner I keep hearing this slamming concern, but I have'nt really experienced it myself .. except for times like falling off the back of a wave near Start point .. when any boat would have displaced a lot of surface water fast!!

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[Chris_Robb]

Jim - The 477 are very flat in the bow sections, and slam even in a mderate chop - going over the Bridge for example in the round the island, it was not rough - but there were several slams which shook the boat. I have yet to experiance a rough windward passage in her, but I think I know what it will be like. Corsair of course spoilt me rotten - you could fall of a huge wave without slamming - unless of course you fell on your side - a problem every yacht will face.

By the way - hows the rudder - I have been looking closely at the 477 bottom bearing which has developed some play......

Chris

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[kesey]

If the proof of the pudding is in the eating... these entries for the ARC 2003 say that a lot of Beneteau and Jeanneau sailors are confident enough in their boats to take them for a 6,000 mile + joyride:

Apologies for the layout of the extract. The original can be found under entries at:

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://homepage.eircom.net/~ajpower>http://homepage.eircom.net/~ajpower

 

[ozzyb]

Re: Personally I don\'t think there

We sold our previous (smaller) yacht earlier this year. We sail all year round, cross the channel regularly but after spending months searching for that 'perfect' boat we ended up with a Benneteau. We know the perfect yacht doesn't exist but it ticked more boxes than any other yacht suitable for the type of sailing we do. Beneteau have been going since 1884, after 120 years they must be doing something right. As per the other posters you'll probabally find more support for bennies than detractors.

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[bedouin]

But as a proviso I would say that the ARC tends to appeal to less experienced sailors; and it is those same sailors who tend to like AWBs. Also the ARC tends to be pretty benign downwind sailing in steady winds - at which fat bottomed AWBs excel.

I seem to recall a very good posting on this board a few months ago from someone trying (and failing) to get an AWB to the ARC start when they hit unexpectedly heavy weather.

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[Moose]

Chris, Is the slamming a known issue on the 473?

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[Chris_Robb]

You mean the 477 - I don't know the 473. I don't know whether others have brout it up, however the 477 is not alone in slaming onto its forefoot. you just need to look at the deapth of the forefoot sections - if there V shaped - then slamming will not be so bad - its all relative and depends on the type of sailing you are going to do.



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[Robin]

There are a number of false premises here. Firstly flat sections are not just the hallmark of so-called AWBs, they are a design feature that reflects modern thinking. Secondly steady winds are not all that ARC participants see on the Atlantic leg, light winds and occasional heavy squalls too are there. Thirdly in order to get to the ARC many will have had heavy weather, upwind included. Fourthly I think you are being a touch patronising about the experience of the participants.

As for the story about the AWB en route and 'failing' to get there, the full story should also mention the Halberg Rassy that had to give up and divert for the same storm.

The following link is the story of a current model AWB, Jeanneau Sun Oddysey 40, delivery trip by the owner 8,000 miles to S Africa from La Rochelle, 59 days, gales up to 50kts, and 5.7kts averaged.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://jeanneau.tripod.com/id141.htm>http://jeanneau.tripod.com/id141.htm</A>








<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>