V2G - maybe the next article will be similar but Vessel (not vehicle) to grid

[Neeves]

‘A house battery you can drive around’: how some Australians are selling power from their cars back to the grid | Scott Dwyer, Jaime Comber and Kriti Nagrath for the Conversation

Lithium house banks and solar are becoming increasingly popular - but how often is the investment used.

For vehicle read vessel

I was mocked, I'm a glutton for punishment, when I said something similar only 6 months ago - but its happening.

Maybe its an Australian thing where home solar is increasingly common place.

Jonathan

 

[Ian_Edwards]

This isn't new, Octopus energy in the UK has been supporting vehicle to grid for a while now. It supports renewable sources of energy and energy trading, buying electricity from the grid over night and selling back to the grid at peak times. There system is automated, so they will initiate buy back when the price is high and they need energy. You can set the limits, ie the minimum percentage charge left in the battery, and you can override the buy back if you want, say100% in the morning, for a long journey. I buy cheap electric every night from 00:30 to 04:30.
It work on both EVs and home battery banks.

 

[Neeves]

I was thinking of the vessel battery banks, say, those who wish to make an Atlantic circuit, focussed on the Caribbean, but maintaining a UK base. Once back home and wanting to keep the yacht - they have viable power source and storage - seems a waste not to monetise it. Good to see the concept is an accepted practice.

Here selling to the grid is common place - but only selling the excess being harvested at a given time. Home batteries are not the rule and EVs have an image problem - huge distances and insufficient recharging facilities - fossil fuels rule.

Jonathan

 

[Tranona]

Whilst it is technically feasible there are all sorts of logistical issues. A few months ago somebody posted a survey here on the every subject - trying to establish what the operating cycle of boats was in order to identify when they were not in use and the energy stored in batteries could be tapped. Totally impractical when you think it through. Even with cars as in post#2 where the infrastructure is already in place it is a marginal activity.

 

[ylop]

Totally impractical when you think it through. Even with cars as in post#2 where the infrastructure is already in place it is a marginal activity.

I'm not sure why its totally impractical? That sounds like the sort of issue people raised with EVs when first muted. Why is it a marginal activity with cars? (I'm not sure what "marginal activity" means in this context. There have been times in the last 12 months where Octopus have paid me for electricity I consume (charging car, running washing machine etc) because the wind and solar is expected to far outweigh instantaneous demand. Demand drops at night, and increased during the day. Lots of cars sit doing nothing during the period of high demand, and sit at home during periods of high supply.

I was thinking of the vessel battery banks, say, those who wish to make an Atlantic circuit, focussed on the Caribbean, but maintaining a UK base. Once back home and wanting to keep the yacht - they have viable power source and storage - seems a waste not to monetise it. Good to see the concept is an accepted practice.

It would need marina infrastructure to catch up, and a degree of standardisation on equipment. Most cars here don't do V2G, whilst its not new here its no caught on and so even if your car can your charger might not, or your supplier might not.

Here selling to the grid is common place - but only selling the excess being harvested at a given time. Home batteries are not the rule and EVs have an image problem - huge distances and insufficient recharging facilities - fossil fuels rule.

We have of course set up a "market" for selling electricity to the grid which probably had laudable aims at the time but has resulted in capital rich home owners installing solar to sell to the grid at the expense of the poorest in society who are on pre-payment meters, don't own their roofs so have no option to join in whilst paying the highest price per unit! Probably the same applies to batteries, if you have thousands to invest in a battery, and live in a semidetached (or detached) house you may end up with a return over time. If you are in a flat just managing to pay the bills you won't have the option and your bills will be higher as a result.

 

[dunedin]

Whilst it is technically feasible there are all sorts of logistical issues. A few months ago somebody posted a survey here on the every subject - trying to establish what the operating cycle of boats was in order to identify when they were not in use and the energy stored in batteries could be tapped. Totally impractical when you think it through. Even with cars as in post#2 where the infrastructure is already in place it is a marginal activity.

I was also going to mention that survey - which it transpires was funded by public money.
The company clearly had zero clue about recreational vessels (and when we pointed out the ICOMIA report, hadn’t heard so it so not done any homework pre survey).
But the commercial vessel Vessel to Grid could potentially work some time WELL into the future, as would be bigger batteries and close to major docks. But need to get two big things sorted first,
(A) the “shore power” to commercial vessels, necessary to stop them running polluting generators 7x24 in harbour; and
(B) commercial vessels converting to battery powered - currently near zero adoption in the UK, unlike France and Norway.

 

[Tranona]

Why is it impractical? - for leisure craft? First the amount of energy stored in a leisure boat's batteries is tiny and second the cost of the infrastructure to connect to the grid would be huge. There may well be specific situations with commercial vessels where it might work IF electric power does become practical for commercial operators.

This is very different from EVs which have energy dense batteries that are easily connected to an infrastructure that already exists. However although the number of cars being used in this way is large, probably in the tens of thousands currently it will always be a small proportion of the total number of cars because of the logistical problems of connection for the majority.

 

[Ian_Edwards]

I don't see grid to boat happening any time soon in the UK for several reasons.
The marinas would have to invest heavily in electrical infrastructure, and they are not know for spending money, it reduces the profit margin. They would want to find a way of making money from the investment.
As things stand the electricity meters associated with the boats/pontoons would probably run backwards when exporting electrical energy.
Most of the boats I've seen or heard about are using 48V systems, not 400V or 800V used in EV's. The current generation of inverter chargers would need to be updated to work bidirectional with the grid. That's possible but it's a small market compared to EVs.
Most boat batteries are still small (I have 5kWh LiFePo4) compared to my EV (83kWh), although it's closer my house battery (9kWh). So there's an is it worth it questions?
Having said that, the 9kWh at was installed for reliability, continuity of supply, not to make money. If go into eco mode that will run the house for about 3 days.
I sure that given time most yachts (with sails) will go electrical, as batteries become smaller and lighter and cheaper. Regeneration and solar will become the source of the energy.

 

[Tranona]

Agree with all of that except the last bit. While there will be a small number of new boats sold with electric power, mostly in the smaller sizes the existing boat population will remain ICE for decades to come as the economics of conversion are just not there. There are no serious plans to phase out ICEs for industrial use so there will be no shortage of replacement engines for yachts.

 

[ylop]

Agree with all of that except the last bit. While there will be a small number of new boats sold with electric power, mostly in the smaller sizes the existing boat population will remain ICE for decades to come as the economics of conversion are just not there. There are no serious plans to phase out ICEs for industrial use so there will be no shortage of replacement engines for yachts.

Agreed the thing that could make the difference for yachts is not needing an engine room, and perhaps getting battery weight inside the keel - that opens up layout options which give designers radical possibilities... those options don't exist for retrofit.

 

[[70521]]

Oh yes, I remember sunshine!

As for summers, I'm still waiting for the ones in 2023 and 2024. Not holding out much hope for 2025.

 

[Neeves]

Agreed the thing that could make the difference for yachts is not needing an engine room, and perhaps getting battery weight inside the keel - that opens up layout options which give designers radical possibilities... those options don't exist for retrofit.

My understanding is that BYD build the chassis of cars from batteries, who would have thought? - building keels with batteries does not seem unrealistic... Building hollow keels from steel plate and then filling the void with diesel is quite accepted, why not fill the keel with a different form of energy.

My thoughts are stimulated by......

10 years ago lithium was not the subject of a thread - now Lithium threads are commonplace. Lithium installations have fostered more discussion and use of solar (and solar prices have come down). I do accept that solar seems more useful in the Med, than on the Clyde. The electric galley is now common place, no longer an exception, gas is becoming very 20th century. . 10 years ago many people had never heard of Victron, et al, nor suitcase power stations. More people seem to have yachts that still have an ICE but are otherwise totally independent off the grid and comfortable.

10 years ago we would not be having this thread - times change and quickly.

Benny, Jenny and Bav seem to expect new yacht sales to continue at least at the current rate for the next decade and average yacht size has increased inexorably over the last 40 years. Boat shows are still full of big(er) yachts (find me a small starter yacht - I know they are sitting unused on swing moorings).

Jonathan

 

[Tranona]

My understanding is that BYD build the chassis of cars from batteries, who would have thought? - building keels with batteries does not seem unrealistic... Building hollow keels from steel plate and then filling the void with diesel is quite accepted, why not fill the keel with a different form of energy.

My thoughts are stimulated by......

10 years ago lithium was not the subject of a thread - now Lithium threads are commonplace. Lithium installations have fostered more discussion and use of solar (and solar prices have come down). I do accept that solar seems more useful in the Med, than on the Clyde. The electric galley is now common place, no longer an exception, gas is becoming very 20th century. . 10 years ago many people had never heard of Victron, et al, nor suitcase power stations. More people seem to have yachts that still have an ICE but are otherwise totally independent off the grid and comfortable.

10 years ago we would not be having this thread - times change and quickly.

Benny, Jenny and Bav seem to expect new yacht sales to continue at least at the current rate for the next decade and average yacht size has increased inexorably over the last 40 years. Boat shows are still full of big(er) yachts (find me a small starter yacht - I know they are sitting unused on swing moorings).

Jonathan

That is all true - but everything you list is carried over from other mass applications and adapted to be useful for boats. Nothing is specifically developed for yachts. The basic architecture of sailing yachts is unchanged. That is the history of yacht development, just about everything is derivative.

 

[noelex]

To feed back power into the grid necessitates a sophisticated system. First and foremost, the frequency needs to be synchronised precisely.

While this is achievable, it’s not a straightforward DIY project using an inverter. It’s challenging to envision a market for a commercial marine product that could fulfill this role in the near future. Most boats store limited energy and operate at significantly lower voltages compared to electric vehicles (EVs) or power walls.

The existing marine electrical infrastructure often struggles to meet the low power requirements of boats and would require substantial upgrades if it were to also feedback power the grid.

Given these factors, I believe it’s a nonstarter at least in the foreseeable future.

 

[William_H]

To feed back power into the grid necessitates a sophisticated system. First and foremost, the frequency needs to be synchronised precisely.

While this is achievable, it’s not a straightforward DIY project using an inverter. It’s challenging to envision a market for a commercial marine product that could fulfill this role in the near future. Most boats store limited energy and operate at significantly lower voltages compared to electric vehicles (EVs) or power walls.

The existing marine electrical infrastructure often struggles to meet the low power requirements of boats and would require substantial upgrades if it were to also feedback power the grid.

Given these factors, I believe it’s a nonstarter at least in the foreseeable future.

Actual frequency/phase alignment is not so technically difficult. Older household inverters simply used incoming AC as the reference and will not work without AC grid supply. More modern systems with storage batteries do have the capability of supplying power to the house in the case of mains failure. Obviously needing strict isolation from the grid.
Yes as I understand it some EV car manufacturers have provision for using the car battery to power a household. (and or feeding to the grid) This can run in parallel to a battery in the house and of course with large solar PV array. A house can easily run up to 5 to 10kw of power drain.
What is interesting is that car batteries are typically 6 times greater capacity than a house battery. Probably 10 to 20 time s the capacity of any boat lithium battery. So an evenings sucking power from the EV car is not going to dent the available range of the EV very much. But an evenings power consumption will half the available power in your house battery or quickly empty your boat lithium.
Add to this relatively small boat battery capacity and the relatively small area available for solar recharge, I can not see it being viable to use a moored boat battery as a supplement to the grid. But a car attached to a house with large solar array yes. ol'will

 

[ylop]

To feed back power into the grid necessitates a sophisticated system. First and foremost, the frequency needs to be synchronised precisely.

…

The existing marine electrical infrastructure often struggles to meet the low power requirements of boats and would require substantial upgrades if it were to also feedback power the grid.

These aspect might just be complementary- perhaps true V2Grid is too complex - and all it really needs is V2Marina - my fully charged boat can charge my neighbours boat, or run the showers, lights and computers in the office then overnight continue to act as a dump for excess power from the grid… but clearly even eVessels are a novelty just now.

 

[ylop]

Add to this relatively small boat battery capacity and the relatively small area available for solar recharge, I can not see it being viable to use a moored boat battery as a supplement to the grid. But a car attached to a house with large solar array yes. ol'will

Yes I don’t think anyone was suggesting it wait a boat domestic battery - we were talking about the future with electric propulsion and consequently larger battery banks.

 

[William_H]

Yes I don’t think anyone was suggesting it wait a boat domestic battery - we were talking about the future with electric propulsion and consequently larger battery banks.

Yes that would do it except for the limited area for solar PV for recharge unless you are relying on recharge from grid off peak. ol'will

 

[Neeves]

My thoughts were that the yachts would feed into the marina, with individual meters for each slip (yacht) - and the marina would convert the yield from all the yachts and sell the power to the grid (or use the power to service the marina). Its obviously not going to work for a yacht on a swing mooring . Individual houses already feed to the grid (in some parts of Australia the feed is so large the grid cannot cope, they need individual batteries or neighbourhood batteries). But if individual house can feed to the grid it does not seem unreasonable to assume the technology is so sophisticated.

Yachts are 'generally' used at the weekend - but at the weekend they are used off grid and increasingly have the same appliances as an inner city apartment (so for a decent sized marina a decent resource). This resource will need replenished, which might take 2 days of sunshine (at least in Oz) - we then have 3 days of wasted resource.

Someone said earlier in this thread that marina's are only interested in profit (a bit like any business - they are not a charity ) but if they and the yacht owner see a potential - and underpin the concept with its environmental aspects.....

So not 'vehicle to grid', not even 'vessel to grid' but 'marina to grid'.

I'm not suggesting .... tomorrow - but lot has already changed in 10 years.

Jonathan

 

[AntarcticPilot]

‘A house battery you can drive around’: how some Australians are selling power from their cars back to the grid | Scott Dwyer, Jaime Comber and Kriti Nagrath for the Conversation

Lithium house banks and solar are becoming increasingly popular - but how often is the investment used.

For vehicle read vessel

I was mocked, I'm a glutton for punishment, when I said something similar only 6 months ago - but its happening.

Maybe its an Australian thing where home solar is increasingly common place.

Jonathan

I don't know why you were mocked - I'd have supported you if I'd spotted it. There is active research into ways and means of using the storage capacity of EV batteries to supplement the electrical grid, charging during low demand and discharging during high demand. It doesn't make much sense in the UK, where most EVs are charged at domestic sites, but it makes a lot of sense in highly urbanized settings where EV charging usually happens at parking lots or dedicated facilities. The problem of appropriate charges/remuneration/incentives is interesting to Operations Research.

I first saw this several years ago, so it's not a new idea!

The downside is that it increases the number of charge/discharge cycles, reducing the battery's lifetime.