Unreacted Coppercoat

[TimfromMersea]

I have Coppercoat on my boat, based at West Mersea on the Essex coast.

We are in a high fouling area and so no antifouling works very well, and Coppercoat is no exception. It never did work and after much negotiation with the manufacturers, over a period of some years, they eventually refunded me a sum that leaves me 'just about evens' when you look at the cost of antifouling that I would have had to have had over the years.

However before I simply cut my losses and paint over it, I'd like some opinions, perhaps from someone who 'knows chemistry'.

Last Sunday morning we had to retire from the race as the boat was too foul to sail properly in the light winds. The Committee Boat said that we had long strands of weed and barnacles on the hull and she was only scrubbed six weeks ago.

The essential problem is that after some three years, including several rubs down out of the water, and being out of the water every year, the Copppercoat is still red, i.e. it hasn't oxidised and turned green. Other boats that are Coppercoated have turned green and the coating seems to be working as an antifoul; mine is still red and thus seems completely inert.

It was applied professionally by a highly regarded (and highly charging!) yard that was recommended by Coppercoat and so we can only assume that there was no fault with the application. They have had it back twice and rubbed it down, but so far there has been no success and it's still red, not green.

From my little knowledge of chemistry, copper in the presence of air oxidises, doesn't it? I'd be really, really grateful if anyone can give me some idea what is wrong here, and how it can be put right. How can I get the Coppercoat to go green and start working?

Many thanks in advance for any help that anyone can offer.

 

[Spookyfella]

This might seem a silly question, but has anyone confirmed they mixed copper in as oppposed to just red colour ?

(Did you hear the spurs jangling as they walk away ?)

 

[wotayottie]

you've stated the problem yourself. In the presence of air, copper oxidises. In the presence of salt water the surface turns to a copper chloride. If your hull stays coppery, then the copper isnt exposed .

I would suggest one last rub down but this time with serious abrasion. After all, if it doesnt work you've lost nothing much anyway.

I have copper coat with boat moored in fresh water. The copper has gone dark brown with only the occasional patch of green from my forays into salt. Some weed attached but it did pressure wash off easily.

 

[Sans Bateau]

If the surface is exposed to air for a longish period and copper oxide forms, will this not stop the copper chloride from forming, and hence stop the product from working?

Incidentally 'professional' application or fitting of anything does not mean a perfect job was done.

I would have thought that if you have had long discussions with coppercoat (ltd?) that all avenues have been explored. And tell me if you now find you can get it to work, will you pay them back the money they refunded?

 

[snowleopard]

Incidentally 'professional' application or fitting of anything does not mean a perfect job was done.

What it should mean is that if something goes wrong you have some comeback.

A few points on the chemistry - copper metal is brown, copper oxide is black as is copper sulphide. Most other copper compounds are green/blue. The part of my Coppercoat that is still working is a dirty greenish-black, 9 years after application. (the rest has gone to inert black sulphide as a result of drying out in mud).

The fact that the OP's hull is still brown could be down to 2 things: (a) it wasn't copper - the brown paint theory seems far-fetched but just possible or (b) the metallic powder is protected by a layer of epoxy.

b is more likely and indicates incorrect application to me. I would suspect that a coat of pure resin has been applied on top of the copper-laden coat(s). I would suggest abrading a patch thoroughly, down to the gel coat even, when it should be possible to see the distinct layers. In this instance the cure would be to abrade it to cut through to the copper-rich layer.

When I did mine the method was to mix the powder into the resin and roll on. A friend who had it done more recently had the resin applied and the powder sprayed into the wet surface. His didn't work either and was re-done under warranty. I retract that last bit, his wasn't coppercoat it was Cuprotect.

 

[TimfromMersea]

If the surface is exposed to air for a longish period and copper oxide forms, will this not stop the copper chloride from forming, and hence stop the product from working?

Incidentally 'professional' application or fitting of anything does not mean a perfect job was done.

I would have thought that if you have had long discussions with coppercoat (ltd?) that all avenues have been explored. And tell me if you now find you can get it to work, will you pay them back the money they refunded?

The short answer is 'no' - they have not given me a complete refund, merely refunded enough to make me believe that the alternative (which was Court action) was not worthwhile. The money refunded was only about 1/3rd of the total cost of the work, including two separate applications, six or seven scrubs a year for the last four years, etc etc. Nothing has been paid for the time and angst over the whole matter. Had it been Court action, solicitors had already advised me that I should claim for the whole cost over the years, suitable allowance for time and trouble and so on.

 

[TimfromMersea]

The short answer is 'no' - they have not given me a complete refund, merely refunded enough to make me believe that the alternative (which was Court action) was not worthwhile. The money refunded was only about 1/3rd of the total cost of the work, including two separate applications, six or seven scrubs a year for the last four years, etc etc. Nothing has been paid for the time and angst over the whole matter. Had it been Court action, solicitors had already advised me that I should claim for the whole cost over the years, suitable allowance for time and trouble and so on.

On reflection I think that I gave the wrong impression - if anyone CAN make it work as well as is claimed, I'll pay them every penny of the money that was refunded, and more as well, and laugh as I write the cheque.

 

[snowleopard]

On reflection I think that I gave the wrong impression - if anyone CAN make it work as well as is claimed, I'll pay them every penny of the money that was refunded, and more as well, and laugh as I write the cheque.

OK, do as I suggested, take some fairly coarse (say 120) wet/dry, used wet, and rub down a patch about a foot diameter until you can start to see the underlying gelcoat in the centre, then put it back in the water. If I'm right, the middle of the circle will rapidly turn green and you can send me a percentage!

p.s. I advise using the paper wet as epoxy dust isn't very user friendly, even when it's not mixed with powdered metals.

 

[vyv_cox]

I go along with the 'further abrasion' suggestions. When I abrade mine the copper is quite obvious, shining brightly, especially if viewed with a magnifying glass. If you abrade yours, can you see the copper? It sounds as though either a copper-free layer has been applied over the top, or no copper was put in in the first place.

The ultimate test, if trying to obtain some redress, is to scrape some of the coating off and give it an ash test. Heat it in a ceramic, or maybe steel, container with a blowlamp. Once the resin has burnt off the copper should be obvious. IIRC the copper content of the mixed coating is something like 70% so it should be very obvious.

 

[Sans Bateau]

On reflection I think that I gave the wrong impression - if anyone CAN make it work as well as is claimed, I'll pay them every penny of the money that was refunded, and more as well, and laugh as I write the cheque.

Good! For a moment I thought you wanted the best of both worlds!!

As Snowleopard advises in 'b', If any area of the hull is abraded with wet and dry and the residual run off is a copper colour then you have found the copper. Alternatively if the run off shows no sign of copper then you are still rubbing down epoxy and that will take some considerable work to expose copper over the whole hull. In which case there may be nothing wrong with the coppercoat, just the application.

Incidentally, Galadriel has Coppercoat that was applied by me 5 seasons ago and it does need a scrub at least once or twice a year, this year with only one scrub in July I recently achieved 7.9knts in 20 knts of breeze in Chi harbour, so I dont think there is too much slowing me down! Also looking at other boats in the marina we have no worse growth under the fore foot than on any boat that has conventional antifoul.

 

[Simes]

So would you reccomend Coppercoat?

We are thinking about Coppercoat, Talisman is a big (ish) Ferro Cement schooner and the cost of Haulout / antifoul every year is making our eyes water.

The cost of Coppercoat is not to be sneezed at either, but the savings in time and haulout fees would make a significant difference to our cruising budget.

So, those of you that have Coppercoat would you do it again?
If so, is it cost or performance that makes it so worthwhile?

If not, same question?

What I like about Coppercoat is that I will do the work, I will follow the instructions, I will be responsible.

Simes

 

[BlueChip]

We are thinking about Coppercoat, Talisman is a big (ish) Ferro Cement schooner and the cost of Haulout / antifoul every year is making our eyes water.

The cost of Coppercoat is not to be sneezed at either, but the savings in time and haulout fees would make a significant difference to our cruising budget.

So, those of you that have Coppercoat would you do it again?
If so, is it cost or performance that makes it so worthwhile?

If not, same question?

What I like about Coppercoat is that I will do the work, I will follow the instructions, I will be responsible.

Simes

Save your money, it doesnt work - just read the Forums - ask any yard manager who does boat scrubs what condition they see boats who have copper coat are in.
I had it done professionally, just a week or two after launching or scrubbing off the weed and slime is back.

 

[snowleopard]

So, those of you that have Coppercoat would you do it again?
If so, is it cost or performance that makes it so worthwhile?

If not, same question?

What I like about Coppercoat is that I will do the work, I will follow the instructions, I will be responsible.

I priced it out and calculated that, on a DIY basis, it needed to work for 2 seasons to break even, which mine did.

I had adhesion problems and would advise anyone to have it done professionally with a written guarantee so that if it fails in any way, you have comeback.

For a ferro hull I would certainly get advice as things like dampness and surface powdering could affect adhesion.

Do not expect it to work in (a) tropical waters or (b) mud berths.

I believe, from my own and others' experiences that it is basically a sound system but has limitations and some major issues with incorrect application.

 

[Sans Bateau]

It has worked for me, and I believe, a good many others. The photo is of Galadriels rudder 8 months after its last scrub. The rudder I believe is a high fouling area as it is exposed to more sunlight. You will see some beardy type grass near the water line, this we find is common, we do not get any marine life, only grass and slime.

I dont think you can get away without drying out and scrubbing, although some have, but as you will see, like anchor and col reg threads, there is a broad difference of opinion.

I applied the coppercoat myself, and yes you do have a comeback if it is done professionally, but if you do the prep as it tells you, and you stick exactly to the instructions you can do a job equally as well as any professional, if not better. After all its your boat, if the lad who is rolling it on at the yard is working his notice, has had a row with his girlfriend, or got a hang over, the last thing he cares about is your boat.

 

[vyv_cox]

Save your money, it doesnt work

It certainly works for me. I only have my keel coated, for Dutch environmental reasons too long and complex to go into here. It lasted for nine years, still working well until rust beneath it forced it off. I had the keel lot grit blasted in winter 2007, epoxy primed and faired. I then applied Coppercoat myself and after two seasons there is absolutely no fouling on it, unlike the hull which had XM A/F on it this season and Plastimo last. In each case there was fouling, more this year than last but then the A/F was a third of the price.

 

[Gwylan]

I was shocked by the amount of 'abrading' that it took to get the stuff working properly.

First coated in 2006, then really disappointed in the results. Many email exchanges and contact at Boat Show with CopperCoat before I got it right.
Then I took the sander to it and got the surface seriously abraded!

Since then it seems to be working properly and we have saved the cost and environmental hassle of anti fouling - seems to be a no brainer to me - now!
Have to see how it has coped with a mud berth for the last season.

 

[tcm]

I recently did copercoating, and after few days drying i lashed a bit of agua fuerte (= dilute hydrchloric acid) around to begin getting it green. If it doesn't go green, i wd get the thing out and do a small area - sand it and apply something to get it going green. Shouldn't need this of course - yer average blimmin copper pipe goes green in weeks if not days in seawater?

 

[tcm]

to answer another post in this new (worse) forum software (simes?) yep i wd do it again - even if it doesn't go green or keep off every bit of fouling, at least you have a really very strong epoxy surface that you can have a good hack at with the scraper - and not rip the stuff off.

 

[tcm]

"it doesn't work"

erm, look, the whole original idea of copper on the bottom of a boat was to stop atack of the wood - in late 1700s the brits did this and instantly (as a by product) the boats resisted barnacle growth and hence britain had faster navy, world domination etc and "it's copperbottomed" was applied to anything really rather good, well-sorted.

But the coper oxide just resists barnacle growth. Not green slime and other carpety hairy growth. If there's slime, then some crustacea growth can sit on the slime, and praps a fair bit. Copper oxide doesnt resist this.

Main thing (for me) with coppercoat is that you get an epoxy surface which is waterproof and durable. Byproduct (for me) is that it resists barnacle growth.

I have mixed copper powder with paint etc before with reasonable results. I bet it would work fine with just mixing some anyold epoxy with some copper powder - you can buy the stuff. But not tried it.

 

[snowleopard]

Have to see how it has coped with a mud berth for the last season.

I expect you'll find the same as me - the part that sits in the mud will be black (Copper sulphide I believe) and it will have become inert. The only thing I know of that works in a mud berth is TBT. I came across someone who had access to some sub paint and his hull comes out clean as the proverbial whistle.