UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

[Fr J Hackett]

You may know this, Nortada, but not everyone will:
In the 'divorce' phase of Brexit negotations lat December, it was agreed that UK nationals formally resident in an EU27 state would retain that right at the time of Brexit. The right would be limited to the EU state of residence and would not represent full freedom of movement: Schengen '3 months in 6' terms would apply for the rest of the EU, although some powerful voices within Brussels expressed the hope that it would be extended.
('Time of Brexit' wasn't quite pinned down: the UK regarded it as March 2019; the EU as the end of any transition period.)

Regarding your other point about exceptions to Schengen visa terms on the part of individual EU countries: this is a fact. In most cases it hinges on obligations created by older treaties by the member state in question.

A few other random thoughts generated by my own experience:
Health insurance is another unresolved concern. David Davies stated a year or more ago that the UK gov desired to remain within the EEA EHIC scheme. This was formally reiterated in the white paper agreed at Chequers recently. (Granted, that has been widely trashed both in the UK and EU27, but it remains the nearest the UK has to a stated policy.) To the best of my knowlledge there has been no opposition to that expressed by EU representatives. However, even those tentative desires may well not survive a no-deal brexit.

Also on the subject of healthcare, but for anyone considering formal EU residence: if EHIC rights survive, so will pensioners' Form S1 entitlement to national health service rights in the country of residence. This also acts as a guarantee of UK NHS entitlement for non-UK resident Brits, without time limit. (It may even survive for existing S1 holders in the event of a no-EHIC Brexit.) I recall reading on here that the S1 application process is a something of an ordeal in Portugal. I wouldn't know about that, but found it both straightforward and worthwhile in Italy. Since it's free, I'd urge anyone considering re-locating to explore it.

Driving licences: full UK driving licences can currently be exchanged as of right for local ones by new residents in the EU28. That may end next March. So, unless you plan on taking a test in a language you're not very fluent, which you'll probably fail, get your local licence before then.

As ever, the bottom line for most of these issues is to wet a digit and hold it up to the breeze. Or simply hold up a digit to your culprit of choice

Finally, well done for seeking a fact-based run-down on Brexit. I have my doubts that it will remain that way but hope for the best,

Not sure if I am reading you correctly but the S1 is a very specific agreement and does not entitle you to treatment per say it says that the UK will fund your treatment costs and is applicable only for retirees resident in EU countries that are aligned with the UK. The EH1C is totally different.
I suspect that both will continue but will require new formal agreements between the UK and the various countries as opposed to the EU.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

We'll probably reflag the boat this winter, as the future of the red ensign is looking quite gloomy

Which begs the question as to what all the non UK resident owners of UK flagged boats are going to do after Brexit. In the Med there are many UK flagged boats only a proportion of which are owned by Brits. The rest are owned by mostly EU residents who use a UK company to own and register their boats. I dont see a reduction of UK flagged boats in the Med so these people are obviously not particularly worried about hanging on to their UK registrations after Brexit. Providing EU VAT has been paid on the boat prior to the UK leaving the EU I dont see how the VAT paid status of these boats can change. Of course it may be a different story for UK registered boats entering the EU on a permanent basis after Brexit as UK VAT may well have been paid on these boats in the UK and EU VAT may well be due also on entry into the EU. I suspect that the RYA might be fighting this issue in the future

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Which begs the question as to what all the non UK resident owners of UK flagged boats are going to do after Brexit. In the Med there are many UK flagged boats only a proportion of which are owned by Brits. The rest are owned by mostly EU residents who use a UK company to own and register their boats. I dont see a reduction of UK flagged boats in the Med so these people are obviously not particularly worried about hanging on to their UK registrations after Brexit. Providing EU VAT has been paid on the boat prior to the UK leaving the EU I dont see how the VAT paid status of these boats can change. Of course it may be a different story for UK registered boats entering the EU on a permanent basis after Brexit as UK VAT may well have been paid on these boats in the UK and EU VAT may well be due also on entry into the EU. I suspect that the RYA might be fighting this issue in the future

I believe you are correct on that point as any VAT paid in the UK prior to the UK leaving the EU will have taken a portion of it so they will not be able to claim that EU VAT has not been paid.

 

[greeny]

I can only echo Notada's comments.



Schengen does not come into it once you get a residency certificate. Turn up at town hall with proof of address, passport and IIRC €12.


What Town hall did you go to? It wasn't that easy for me! Also with residency comes the question of taxation.

 

[Tranona]

I suspect that the RYA might be fighting this issue in the future

You are right. In their last report to members this issue was highlighted as being on their list when working with our "negotiators". However given the way things are progressing overall it is probably pretty low on their priority list!

 

[geem]

Vic. Suggest you read the latest eligibility rules for the SSR as they have changed. Being a taxpayer is no longer sufficient (not that it ever was, just sort of assumed). The definition of "resident" is much more clearly defined and you may not meet it.

Having just had an almighty battle with the UK authorities with regard to to eligibility to renew my SSR I can confirm some experience here. What they say is you have to be in the UK for 185 days in the year. This is wrong. I contested this with them and they eventually had to take legal advice from the MCA. The requirement is actually to prove you are 'ordinarily resident in the UK'. You don't have to be in the UK for 185 days a year to meet this criteria. If you can prove you have property in the U.K., a U.K. Bank account, a UK pension, family in the UK, then you are ordinarily resident. On this basis we now have our SSR renewed. They use the 185 day rule as 'a rule of thumb'. The criteria for Ordinary Resident is not defined in statute. It comes from case law. If you examine the case law I suspect you can meet less of the criteria I have stated above and still prove Ordinary Residence.

 

[Tranona]

Well done for taking them on. The 185 days was a recent addition to the eligibility advice. Maybe they will change their advice.

However if this becomes a big issue they may revisit the whole thing as the SSR was never intended to be used in the way that many people are. It was specifically set up for boats and owners based in the UK to comply with the requirements of other states when making temporary visits. Mainly driven by French pressures. It was never intended to be a replacement for Part 1 registration.

Of course the boating (and political) environment has changed dramatically since then and the registration system has not developed to reflect that. Maybe post Brexit when things are likely to change again in a more formal way there could be a complete rethink. Don't hold your breath, though and more likely there will be more fudge than positive action.

 

[nortada]

Not sure what it is that leads you to this conclusion.

The flag state of your boat has absolutely no effect on your freedom to move the boat within the EU. That is solely dependent on the boat being considered a "EU" boat. The evidence required for this is payment of VAT, or in some states such as Portugal and Croatia which also may require/accept a T2l which is the EU form declaring goods are of EU origin when moving across states. It is not intended for boats but for commercial shipments, but HMRC will issue one on request (details on the RYA site). There is no requirement for a VAT paid EU boat to be even registered in the EU. Registration and flag state are governed by international maritime law, not the EU.

Your future problem with your registration is that you may cease to be eligible for the SSR as you may no longer meet the residency requirements, so renewal may be problematic. Registration in most states require either nationality or residence, or both, although you may be eligible to register the boat in the Channel Islands.

Like all the other things being discussed here there are a number of different scenarios for the future, and if there are new rules for "UK" boats there are different ways of defining what a "UK" boat is, but I doubt that flag state on its own will be a determinant when residence and nationality of owner and particularly VAT are far more important.

Hi Tranona,

I understand currently you are in the UK but I am well aware you are widly travelled so great that you are participating in these discussions.

We have debated the T2L saga at length and both agree that, despite authorities in Portugal and Croatia, occasionally demanding sight of, this form, it has no meaning in the context of VAT on UK boats in the EU.

The only good thing, a T2L is free and easy to obtain from HMRC Salford.

You can pull the form down, print it off and send to Salford and it will come back fully stamped up. One word to the wise, do not send your ship’s to paper to Salford. HMRC do not require any supporting documentation but if you sent it, you will not get it returned!

I have to wiz up to London, but on my return, I will dig out the link for the T2L form and post it on here.

 

[macd]

Not sure if I am reading you correctly but the S1 is a very specific agreement and does not entitle you to treatment per say it says that the UK will fund your treatment costs and is applicable only for retirees resident in EU countries that are aligned with the UK. The EH1C is totally different.
I suspect that both will continue but will require new formal agreements between the UK and the various countries as opposed to the EU.

Yes, they're different, but related. S1, once registered in your new country, enttles you to treatment in its health servce as any resident national of that country would receive. It is, incidentally, available to more than just UK pensioners (not "retirees"), although they are the main eligible group. It also entitles you to a UK-issed EHIC. And, as said, free and full NHS treatment in the UK, to which an ex-pat would otherwise probably not be entitled.

I hope your suspicion is correct: it's an obvious area for reciprocity.

 

[Graham376]

Also with residency comes the question of taxation.

A question which is best ignored in Portugal.

 

[Garold]

It seems likely that the position will be resolved for Brits who are EU property owners though with possibly some workarounds available in some countries.

However for those that cruise the Med >3 months continuously each year our future seems to rely upon the continuation of some kind of free movement deal (maybe with some visa arrangement) as the only hope.

As I mentioned to Nortada, it’s a small thing but when arranging our winter boatyard I wasn’t really sure what to say when they ask what date we’d like to be launched in 2019. If we still have free movement, then Easter, otherwise a couple of months later.

And what of the future? If we are restricted to 90 days in every 180, I’m not sure that this would still suit us. Since most of our boat costs are fixed, a shorter season wouldn’t really cost much less than a longer cruising season. I imagine there must be a few other cruisers who are pondering their cruising future.

Garold

 

[jordanbasset]

It seems likely that the position will be resolved for Brits who are EU property owners though with possibly some workarounds available in some countries.

However for those that cruise the Med >3 months continuously each year our future seems to rely upon the continuation of some kind of free movement deal (maybe with some visa arrangement) as the only hope.

As I mentioned to Nortada, it’s a small thing but when arranging our winter boatyard I wasn’t really sure what to say when they ask what date we’d like to be launched in 2019. If we still have free movement, then Easter, otherwise a couple of months later.

And what of the future? If we are restricted to 90 days in every 180, I’m not sure that this would still suit us. Since most of our boat costs are fixed, a shorter season wouldn’t really cost much less than a longer cruising season. I imagine there must be a few other cruisers who are pondering their cruising future.

Garold

Agree, as we also like to spend a large part of the winter in Spain if we are restricted to 90 days in every 180 something has to give and reluctantly it would probably be the boat.
But still hoping some sort of freedom of movement deal will be agreed or at least Brexit delayed another year or two

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Yes, they're different, but related. S1, once registered in your new country, enttles you to treatment in its health servce as any resident national of that country would receive. It is, incidentally, available to more than just UK pensioners (not "retirees"), although they are the main eligible group. It also entitles you to a UK-issed EHIC. And, as said, free and full NHS treatment in the UK, to which an ex-pat would otherwise probably not be entitled.


I hope your suspicion is correct: it's an obvious area for reciprocity.

That is correct however the cost is born by the UK

[h=2]2.1. S1 Form Health Insurance Cover in France[/h]If you are proposing to retire or to look for work in France, for those living within a country in the EEA (European Economic Area) a certificate of health entitlement is in place to assist with free movement around the EEA.These certificates of entitlement have been known as 'E' forms, but in May 2010 they were replaced by 'S' forms. There are also 'A' forms covering cross-border workers and 'U' forms covering unemployed persons, sometimes used in conjunction with an 'S' form.The S1 Form (formerly E106/E121) is a certificate of entitlement to health care in another EEA country, provided via the social security authority in your home country.The form means that you will get access to health care in France on the same terms as French nationals, and you will not need to pay French social security health contributions.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Agree, as we also like to spend a large part of the winter in Spain if we are restricted to 90 days in every 180 something has to give and reluctantly it would probably be the boat.
But still hoping some sort of freedom of movement deal will be agreed or at least Brexit delayed another year or two

Could somebody explain how this works please? Does it mean that if you spend 90 days in the EU you must be out of the EU for the following 90 days? Or could it work like this. From Jan through March (90 days) you are in the UK and from Apr through June (90 days) you are on your boat in the Med. On 30th June you fly back to the UK and return to your boat 1 day later. You then spend July through Sept (90 days) on your boat and return to the UK for Oct through Dec (90 days). You have spent 2 periods of 90 days in 180 days in the EU. Does that satisfy the laws?

I ask this because we would be far more likely to spend the summer months in the Med than the winter months so it would suit us to have 2 consecutive periods of 90 days there

And what actually happens if you overstay your 90 days? Surely nobody will know until you go through passport control on leaving the EU? Do they arrest you at passport control or are you just banned from returning to the EU and if so for how long?

 

[Tranona]

Hi Tranona,

I understand currently you are in the UK but I am well aware you are widly travelled so great that you are participating in these discussions.

We have debated the T2L saga at length and both agree that, despite authorities in Portugal and Croatia, occasionally demanding sight of, this form, it has no meaning in the context of VAT on UK boats in the EU.

The only good thing, a T2L is free and easy to obtain from HMRC Salford.

You can pull the form down, print it off and send to Salford and it will come back fully stamped up. One word to the wise, do not send your ship’s to paper to Salford. HMRC do not require any supporting documentation but if you sent it, you will not get it returned!

I have to wiz up to London, but on my return, I will dig out the link for the T2L form and post it on here.

Not sure why you linked this to my post as the T2L was only a side issue - and I did give a good source of information about it.

The central issue I was highlighting is that neither the flag of the boat nor the nationality of the owner have any bearing on the freedom of movement of the boat within the EU. It is solely whether the boat has "EU" status allowing free movement which for a private pleasure boat normally means it has to have evidence of VAT payment. The T2L may also be accepted by some states (or even demanded!) as well even though that is not its official EU status.

Nothing new about this, but one can foresee that a somewhat similar document might come about if there is a status established for UK VAT paid boats giving them "grandfather" rights within the EU after a specific cut off date. That principle is already established for people - at least for the rights of EU citizens currently resident in the UK.

 

[geem]

Well done for taking them on. The 185 days was a recent addition to the eligibility advice. Maybe they will change their advice.

However if this becomes a big issue they may revisit the whole thing as the SSR was never intended to be used in the way that many people are. It was specifically set up for boats and owners based in the UK to comply with the requirements of other states when making temporary visits. Mainly driven by French pressures. It was never intended to be a replacement for Part 1 registration.

Of course the boating (and political) environment has changed dramatically since then and the registration system has not developed to reflect that. Maybe post Brexit when things are likely to change again in a more formal way there could be a complete rethink. Don't hold your breath, though and more likely there will be more fudge than positive action.

The whole thing is a farce. If you are forced to go down the Part 1 route you need the ridiculous tonnage survey. What relevance this has for a pleasure vessel in this day and age is beyond me. All we want is a document that says this is the name of the boat, length, breadth of the boat, size of engine, name of owner and registered in UK with this hull number. Authorities all over the world don't care about anything else. A tonnage survey that can't be done from manufacturers details is a farce. Nobody cares. It's a money making racket. We need one system for all pleasure vessels under say 80ft. It would save a lot of hassle for everybody.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The whole thing is a farce. If you are forced to go down the Part 1 route you need the ridiculous tonnage survey. What relevance this has for a pleasure vessel in this day and age is beyond me. All we want is a document that says this is the name of the boat, length, breadth of the boat, size of engine, name of owner and registered in UK with this hull number. Authorities all over the world don't care about anything else. A tonnage survey that can't be done from manufacturers details is a farce. Nobody cares. It's a money making racket. We need one system for all pleasure vessels under say 80ft. It would save a lot of hassle for everybody.

Not sure its that big an issue. I have bought several boats in Europe over the years and always re-registered them under Part 1 if they were not already. The tonnage survey establishes that the boat exists and has certain dimensions and costs a small amount of money at least relative to the cost of the boat. IMHO there are advantages to Part 1 registration. Firstly it requires more rigorous proof of ownership and being a UK registry, then I and the boat are subject to UK registration law rather than subject to another country's registration law which may (or may not) be an advantage if that country brings in any boat specific taxes. Second, it may make my boat more attractive when I sell it on. As I mentioned above, Part 1 is attractive to some foreigners because of potential tax advantages and because ownership is clearly established and it also allows any future UK owner to mortgage the boat

 

[Garold]

Could somebody explain how this works please? Does it mean that if you spend 90 days in the EU you must be out of the EU for the following 90 days? Or could it work like this. From Jan through March (90 days) you are in the UK and from Apr through June (90 days) you are on your boat in the Med. On 30th June you fly back to the UK and return to your boat 1 day later. You then spend July through Sept (90 days) on your boat and return to the UK for Oct through Dec (90 days). You have spent 2 periods of 90 days in 180 days in the EU. Does that satisfy the laws?

I ask this because we would be far more likely to spend the summer months in the Med than the winter months so it would suit us to have 2 consecutive periods of 90 days there

And what actually happens if you overstay your 90 days? Surely nobody will know until you go through passport control on leaving the EU? Do they arrest you at passport control or are you just banned from returning to the EU and if so for how long?

As far as I understand it means that in any 180 period you can only be in a Schengen country for 90 of the days.

So, you could do 90 days on, 90 days off. Or every other week for a whole year say.

But not two periods of 90 days through the summer months with 180 days then outside the zone through winter.

Garold

 

[Garold]

Agree, as we also like to spend a large part of the winter in Spain if we are restricted to 90 days in every 180 something has to give and reluctantly it would probably be the boat.
But still hoping some sort of freedom of movement deal will be agreed or at least Brexit delayed another year or two

I think that we (cruisers) will be treated differently to EU homeowners. I doubt there will be any special concession for cruising yachtsmen.

Since we are in Greece, perhaps we could visit Croatia, Albania, Montenegro or Turkey for part of the cruising season to fill it out beyond 90 days.

However cruising in places that you didn’t really have a hankering to visit isn’t going to be a permanent solution.

So as you say, unless there’s some deal whereby we can have freedom to roam, somethings going to give sooner or later. And it may be that the boat proves to just be too big a commitment if we can only use it for 90 days of the summer months.

Garold

 

[Graham376]

I think that we (cruisers) will be treated differently to EU homeowners. I doubt there will be any special concession for cruising yachtsmen.

May be worth checking whether some EU States allow a home marina berth address to count as a residence for the purpose of establishing personal residence.