Twin diesel vs twin petrol conundrum...

[ari]

A big issue you also need to consider is the phycological issue of fuelling a big petrol boat.

Your twin AQAD 41s will be burning about 50 litres/hour at about 80p/litre (at current prices - it's rising).

So a decent day out on the water, four hours running, is going to blow through £150.

Twin V8 petrols in an equivalent boat? Maybe 85 litres an hour? And what, £1.50/litre at the marine pumps? (Don't kid yourself you're going to hump it down in cans - you'll do it twice. IF you can find a petrol station willing to let you take a large amount in cans).

Suddenly that lovely day out has cost you £500! Are you going to go out again tomorrow and blow another £500?

And the final irony is, if you are earning so much that you can genuinely afford not to think twice about blowing a grand on fuel in a weekend, you can probably afford a newer diesel boat.

That's the real issue with big old twin V8 petrol boats. Those that can afford to run them can afford something newer/nicer/diesel. Those that can't afford something newer/nicer/diesel can't afford to run the big old twin V8 petrol boat.

Of course you could just potter round locally on it. Trundle out to a nearby bay, drop the hook. In which case, why bother with a big twin engined boat?

 

[ari]

Nail+head really and the age of the AQAD41's is part of the issue - I'm very mechanically capable, but access isn't great and there will come a time (not too far away I suspect) when the 41's will follow the 40's and parts will become obsolete - and at this point, maintaining becomes a headache.

Just on this point.

Please correct me if I'm wring, but I think the AQAD40 ceased production in the early Eighties? The AQAD41 went on much longer. Even when the KAD 42 came out, you could still get the AQAD41 I believe. It would be interesting to know when the finish date was, but my point is, just because you may be looking at a 30 year old boat doesn't mean that the engines ceased production then - I reckon it carried on for another 10 - 15 years.

And there are a LOT of AQAD/TAMD 41 engines out there. They were putting them in everything 30-35ft in the Eighties and Nineties.

I'd be surprised if Volvo Penta were in a hurry to shut down that lucrative market for parts.

 

[rbcoomer]

Any arguments re fuel bill (s) petrol Vs Diesel are Completly defeated by the cost of refinancing /removing equity out of your house .
Further more any perceived capital benefit ( less up front for the petrol ) is completely defeated by selling a bricks n mortar UK property asset .-- cost of dispersal -legal s + agent -= £10 k so called saving ? ( £30 D vs £20P )
Think in 5y ,10y -20y etc and roll up the lost rent as well .

So in my mind this is adding up to a chain of errors
2x petrols ---- 1is ok sub 27 ft or so
Outdrives ---- money pit !
Refinancing a house -servicing debt
Selling property -losing BTL income and capital appreciation on a zilch interest rate ecoconomies .

As you say the safety issue is the only thing I agree with you -

Don,t do it -that's my 0.02 p worth

Keep the flechers to scratch "I need a boat to get out on the water " itch fair enough we all can see that .
Use the rent ( from the inherited flat ) + the saved refinancing payments. + the saved admin fees ( refinancing -estate agent + legals etc )
To - you have guessed it --- rent a boat --- even in the Med a couple or three weeks /year .

Very valid points, but...

The flat is probably worth 75K and after a small outstanding mortgage is shared equally between myself and my sister. Sister wants to sell and I don't want another 30K mortgage to service if I were to buy her out. Our own mortgage is thankfully small (30K) and equity relatively high at perhaps 200K - but there's no way I would use that to fund a boat! I could use it to fund the other 50% of the flat by buying out my sister but not really interested in BTL or that hassle that goes with it! Without going into life story, I grew up on a council estate in a single parent family. Mother was crippled with Rheumatoid Arthritis by the time I was 10, so a very hands-on type of person out of necessity. Hard graft and long hours plus a lot of luck perhaps in the following 40 years has left us where we are and aside from some provision for our son, we have concluded that we have an opportunity to 'live a little'... We have governed our life thus far by focusing on family commitments and animals (horses, dogs. cats, chickens, snakes etc etc!) We've never had holidays and particularly for our son, feel now is the time to kick back a little! My Mum passed away in 2005 and Cheryl's Mum last October (after a long and arduous spell in care due to dementia - 7 years). The flat was my Uncle's who also passed last year.

In short, yes I could borrow and buy out my sister's share of the flat, but I don't need to and in all honesty don't really want to! Lazy maybe, but perhaps just tired of running to stand still? I've done the high demand jobs but now settled on less money doing something interesting with boats and lovin' it! Manically busy, but leaning every day and keen to actually get on the water more as a family. The Fletcher is great, but we can't go that far and can't stay on her... I'll also still have the Arrowbolt and will still slowly plot away at that one. One of the V8's may ultimately find it's way into that...

 

[CLB]

Just on this point.

Please correct me if I'm wring, but I think the AQAD40 ceased production in the early Eighties? The AQAD41 went on much longer. Even when the KAD 42 came out, you could still get the AQAD41 I believe. It would be interesting to know when the finish date was, but my point is, just because you may be looking at a 30 year old boat doesn't mean that the engines ceased production then - I reckon it carried on for another 10 - 15 years.

And there are a LOT of AQAD/TAMD 41 engines out there. They were putting them in everything 30-35ft in the Eighties and Nineties.

I'd be surprised if Volvo Penta were in a hurry to shut down that lucrative market for parts.

I think KADs were launched around 96/97, so the AD41 was probably still in production until the mid to late 90's so the newest ones will probably be around 20 years old.

 

[rbcoomer]

In my opinion, the cost of 'servicing' the two boat will actually be very similar. You mention injection pump and turbos, but these are not what I would call 'service' items. The drives will be pretty much the same to service, and the engines will be almost the same with the diesels probably needing more oil but the petrols needing spark plugs.

The point you are trying to make is not so much servicing/maintaining, it's fixing. Now it was mentioned above that your usage would amount to £2700 per year more in fuel for the petrol boat. A turbo can be had for about £800*. To recon a 290dp drive maybe £1500*. My point is that the savings in fuel should pay for any extra maintenance quite easily, and you still benefit from easy to obtain fuel and a higher demand, higher price, easier sale when the time comes.

Having said that, you appear to have your mind made up, so you should go with what your head is telling you and not listen to us old boogers.

ps. one last point. a paid of mistreated 10 year old drives will be a worse proposition IMHO that a pair of 30 year old well maintained drives. How you find out the reality of their whole life treatment is the difficult thing. Good luck with whichever way you go!

*http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Origi...647984?hash=item237be7dbb0:g:lPAAAOSwEzxYV~ui

*http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Volvo-Pen...276312?hash=item4b0af37bd8:g:yV0AAOSwk1JWb9U5 ( I assume there may be some parts on top of this)

Yes, valid point - more 'repair' than servicing was the thought process - and reliability.

I do take the point on the drives, but the older drives were prone to issues that newer variations addressed - reverse latch etc Plus, all these things evolve over time and generally for the better!

No, mind far from made up - also pondering another single diesel 25'... Which I could save more than a few quid each year in running costs, berthing, ability to pull out onto trailer etc It's not all about the money however - we could all live on beans on toast, but few do... (We are considering the 25 as an interim and then change in a year or two.)

 

[julians]

I suspect it'll come down to whether the extra fuel cost and potentially more difficulty selling it on in future are significant for you.

In 2013 I swapped from a 2006 petrol engined sea ray to a 2006 windy 25 with a d4.The diesel boat consumes significantly less fuel as you would expect,but the maintenance costs of the diesel far outweigh the fuel costs, it's not that the diesel is more unreliable (it isnt much more unreliable) it's that the prices of volvo diesel parts are eye wateringly expensive compared to mercruiser petrol parts.

I think the petrol boat cost about 1k per year less to run excluding mooring costs

 

[rbcoomer]

A big issue you also need to consider is the phycological issue of fuelling a big petrol boat.

Your twin AQAD 41s will be burning about 50 litres/hour at about 80p/litre (at current prices - it's rising).

So a decent day out on the water, four hours running, is going to blow through £150.

Twin V8 petrols in an equivalent boat? Maybe 85 litres an hour? And what, £1.50/litre at the marine pumps? (Don't kid yourself you're going to hump it down in cans - you'll do it twice. IF you can find a petrol station willing to let you take a large amount in cans).

Suddenly that lovely day out has cost you £500! Are you going to go out again tomorrow and blow another £500?

And the final irony is, if you are earning so much that you can genuinely afford not to think twice about blowing a grand on fuel in a weekend, you can probably afford a newer diesel boat.

That's the real issue with big old twin V8 petrol boats. Those that can afford to run them can afford something newer/nicer/diesel. Those that can't afford something newer/nicer/diesel can't afford to run the big old twin V8 petrol boat.

Of course you could just potter round locally on it. Trundle out to a nearby bay, drop the hook. In which case, why bother with a big twin engined boat?

In all likelihood, I'll work 50' way from the boat, so taking a fuel can every few days isn't an issue - I do the same now on a smaller scale as I usually drop the Fletcher in for a week at a time and have to carry fuel further. But, I do take the point that filling at the fuel barge is expensive for petrol compared with diesel. Most trips in early years will likely be short and due to other commitments, longest will be one day trips.

Just on this point.

Please correct me if I'm wring, but I think the AQAD40 ceased production in the early Eighties? The AQAD41 went on much longer. Even when the KAD 42 came out, you could still get the AQAD41 I believe. It would be interesting to know when the finish date was, but my point is, just because you may be looking at a 30 year old boat doesn't mean that the engines ceased production then - I reckon it carried on for another 10 - 15 years.

And there are a LOT of AQAD/TAMD 41 engines out there. They were putting them in everything 30-35ft in the Eighties and Nineties.

I'd be surprised if Volvo Penta were in a hurry to shut down that lucrative market for parts.

Agreed - I wasn't saying that I expect VP to drop the AD41 tomorrow - far from it, but there will come a time and it is a relatively old engine. They'll ultimately want people to buy newer - just like car manufacturers. Lucrative markets become less so when volume drops!

I think KADs were launched around 96/97, so the AD41 was probably still in production until the mid to late 90's so the newest ones will probably be around 20 years old.

Boats I'm looking at are late 80's / early 90's, but a valid point.

 

[rbcoomer]

I suspect it'll come down to whether the extra fuel cost and potentially more difficulty selling it on in future are significant for you.

In 2013 I swapped from a 2006 petrol engined sea ray to a 2006 windy 25 with a d4.The diesel boat consumes significantly less fuel as you would expect,but the maintenance costs of the diesel far outweigh the fuel costs, it's not that the diesel is more unreliable (it isnt much more unreliable) it's that the prices of volvo diesel parts are eye wateringly expensive compared to mercruiser petrol parts.

I think the petrol boat cost about 1k per year less to run excluding mooring costs

That's an interesting experience and quite surprising given age, but I suspect if you did a lot of hours the equation would balance a bit more? Selling on is less of a concern as I'd hope the boat would be a long term prospect, but also because I'd ultimately aim to repower. Even if we went with a twin AQAD41 (assuming we could find one we could fund, but that may just be a matter of delaying) - I'd look to repower. It would be perhaps a few years further down the road, but the boat in question would be pretty desirable in good condition with (for example) a pair of D4's...


Thanks once again to all for the feedback - a thoughtful weekend ahead whilst I wrestle with fitting a Range Rover gearbox! :encouragement:

 

[julians]

but I suspect if you did a lot of hours the equation would balance a bit more?
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...in-petrol-conundrum/page5#ByiOzEf5x0DOPx81.99

I guess so , I tend to do about 50 hours per year

 

[Portofino]

Very valid points, but...

The flat is probably worth 75K and after a small outstanding mortgage is shared equally between myself and my sister. Sister wants to sell and I don't want another 30K mortgage to service if I were to buy her out. Our own mortgage is thankfully small (30K) and equity relatively high at perhaps 200K - but there's no way I would use that to fund a boat! I could use it to fund the other 50% of the flat by buying out my sister but not really interested in BTL or that hassle that goes with it! Without going into life story, I grew up on a council estate in a single parent family. Mother was crippled with Rheumatoid Arthritis by the time I was 10, so a very hands-on type of person out of necessity. Hard graft and long hours plus a lot of luck perhaps in the following 40 years has left us where we are and aside from some provision for our son, we have concluded that we have an opportunity to 'live a little'... We have governed our life thus far by focusing on family commitments and animals (horses, dogs. cats, chickens, snakes etc etc!) We've never had holidays and particularly for our son, feel now is the time to kick back a little! My Mum passed away in 2005 and Cheryl's Mum last October (after a long and arduous spell in care due to dementia - 7 years). The flat was my Uncle's who also passed last year.

In short, yes I could borrow and buy out my sister's share of the flat, but I don't need to and in all honesty don't really want to! Lazy maybe, but perhaps just tired of running to stand still? I've done the high demand jobs but now settled on less money doing something interesting with boats and lovin' it! Manically busy, but leaning every day and keen to actually get on the water more as a family. The Fletcher is great, but we can't go that far and can't stay on her... I'll also still have the Arrowbolt and will still slowly plot away at that one. One of the V8's may ultimately find it's way into that...

Thx for the additional info -- in reality its although very personsal ,it just life .I think we can all identify with certain aspects ++ more .

Moving on ---
Think of it --as the tenant services your sisters pay off + the residual loan(s) on the property .
Your cash flow should increase , with what's left over . --- to fund what you prioritise eg some nice hols centre parc, etc ( they have lakes ) for your son .

Perhaps then in a few years time then have a rethink ,without "sister " involvement and go from there.


It's just IMHO a cardinal investment sin to sell bricks n mortar ( or raise a loan on property ) to buy another depreciating plastic asset to add to the list of the ones in your case you allready have .

You are giving up the opportunity of the additional income to the family budget .
When your son,s 18 pass title to him - ( so if you predecease your wife -and she remarries -dies the new bloke cops the lot ) he will appreciate that more than a few uk boat hols .Rent fund Uni ?
Or strike a deal with him later to sell it (in his name ) and give you the cash back free of cap gains tax .

Any how having said all this you could be diagnosed with bowl cancer next month ( there's a few on here, but not telling what stage ? ) - so as you say
" live a little / kick back "
Good luck with your plans

 

[rbcoomer]

but I suspect if you did a lot of hours the equation would balance a bit more?
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...in-petrol-conundrum/page5#ByiOzEf5x0DOPx81.99

I guess so , I tend to do about 50 hours per year

I think that's quite typical and does make the service a large chunk of the costs. We are lucky to live by the coast and yet have rarely done more so far - mainly due to launch/recovery, so aiming to leave in this year! I also service myself, so parts cost only.

 

[rbcoomer]

Thx for the additional info -- in reality its although very personsal ,it just life .I think we can all identify with certain aspects ++ more .

Moving on ---
Think of it --as the tenant services your sisters pay off + the residual loan(s) on the property .
Your cash flow should increase , with what's left over . --- to fund what you prioritise eg some nice hols centre parc, etc ( they have lakes ) for your son .

Perhaps then in a few years time then have a rethink ,without "sister " involvement and go from there.


It's just IMHO a cardinal investment sin to sell bricks n mortar ( or raise a loan on property ) to buy another depreciating plastic asset to add to the list of the ones in your case you allready have .

You are giving up the opportunity of the additional income to the family budget .
When your son,s 18 pass title to him - ( so if you predecease your wife -and she remarries -dies the new bloke cops the lot ) he will appreciate that more than a few uk boat hols .Rent fund Uni ?
Or strike a deal with him later to sell it (in his name ) and give you the cash back free of cap gains tax .

Any how having said all this you could be diagnosed with bowl cancer next month ( there's a few on here, but not telling what stage ? ) - so as you say
" live a little / kick back "
Good luck with your plans

Very well put and I absolutely recognise that as the 'sensible' option. We have talked about this but as I'm 49 and missus 56, she is even more of the view that "I'll be too old to enjoy it in 10 years" - and I must admit, with every year there's a few more aches and it does make you think... We have quite an ageing population on our marina (as I'm sure many do) and many comment that they don't get the enjoyment out of the boat that they've put their heart and soul into for x years because of deteriorating health. I don't really want that to be me looking back in 20 years (or missus in 10 years!)

I've kind of drawn a bit of a compromise in that £10-15k will go on current house as this will add value and we're also a few months away from paying off a short-term 2nd mortgage - the saving from which will fund the 'running' of the boat. Thus although the flat sale will likely return around 35k, I have no intention of using all this for a boat - however tempting! This is part of the dilemma in that the budget would be 'there' for the twin diesel, but not IMHO worth sacrificing some new windows etc on house!

Perhaps I'll go with plan C - do nothing for 12 months...

 

[Phildorset]

I found this quote to be a pretty succinct summary.... made me smile (and think)
'That's the real issue with big old twin V8 petrol boats. Those that can afford to run them can afford something newer/nicer/diesel. Those that can't afford something newer/nicer/diesel can't afford to run the big old twin V8 petrol boat.'

 

[ari]

Thx for the additional info -- in reality its although very personsal ,it just life .I think we can all identify with certain aspects ++ more .

Moving on ---
Think of it --as the tenant services your sisters pay off + the residual loan(s) on the property .
Your cash flow should increase , with what's left over . --- to fund what you prioritise eg some nice hols centre parc, etc ( they have lakes ) for your son .

Perhaps then in a few years time then have a rethink ,without "sister " involvement and go from there.

Reminded me a bit of this

An American investment banker was taking a much-needed vacation in a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. The boat had several large, fresh fish in it.

The investment banker was impressed by the quality of the fish and asked the Mexican how long it took to catch them.

The Mexican replied, “Only a little while.”

The banker then asked why he didn’t stay out longer and catch more fish?

The Mexican fisherman replied he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs.

The American then asked “But what do you do with the rest of your time?”

The Mexican fisherman replied, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos: I have a full and busy life, señor.”

The investment banker scoffed, “I am an Ivy League MBA, and I could help you. You could spend more time fishing and with the proceeds buy a bigger boat, and with the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats until eventually you would have a whole fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to the middleman you could sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You could control the product, processing and distribution.”

Then he added, “Of course, you would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City where you would run your growing enterprise.”

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But señor, how long will this all take?”

To which the American replied, “15-20 years.”

“But what then?” asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich. You could make millions.”

“Millions, señor? Then what?”

To which the investment banker replied, “Then you would retire. You could move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”

 

[Bouba]

Actually quite like that, but cost of bringing her around could be a small hiccup! (Would have to be under own power too as I wouldn't pass up a trip like that! )

She is low and sleek, you could bring her up the Rhone, or even the du Midi. May not be quicker but would be safer and a very enjoyable holiday

 

[rbcoomer]

Ari - that is spot on! I think I'll retire now... (Oh, hang on a minute - need more fuel! )

 

[TheOrs]

1) Portofino is right but I can see why you don't want to keep the flat.

2) I wouldn't be too concerned about the performance. I bought a 25ft V8 petrol sports cruiser a few years ago to replace my Arrowflyte. I bought V8 petrol over a similarly priced Diesel version of the same boat (yes, really) because I thought I wanted the performance. We can ski from it and she will hit over 40kts with a clean bum but the fuel costs are eye-watering. So much so, that it spoils the experience a bit. More importantly though, we found our usage changed with the bigger boat - it's more of a floating caravan. I kept the Arrowflyte and I'm thinking of swapping out the sports cruiser for a chugger in a few years.

3) Buy what you want, not what 'The Forum' wants.

 

[rbcoomer]

She is low and sleek, you could bring her up the Rhone, or even the du Midi. May not be quicker but would be safer and a very enjoyable holiday

First glance, I saw 'Exeter' and thought - Wow - 20 minutes away, I'll have a look tomorrow... Then I read properly!

 

[rbcoomer]

1) Portofino is right but I can see why you don't want to keep the flat.

2) I wouldn't be too concerned about the performance. I bought a 25ft V8 petrol sports cruiser a few years ago to replace my Arrowflyte. I bought V8 petrol over a similarly priced Diesel version of the same boat (yes, really) because I thought I wanted the performance. We can ski from it and she will hit over 40kts with a clean bum but the fuel costs are eye-watering. So much so, that it spoils the experience a bit. More importantly though, we found our usage changed with the bigger boat - it's more of a floating caravan. I kept the Arrowflyte and I'm thinking of swapping out the sports cruiser for a chugger in a few years.

3) Buy what you want, not what 'The Forum' wants.

1 - Yes, me too. The 'right' / 'sensible' option, but not for us.
2 - The boat in question is in it's element at speed, but even with the Fletcher, a quick blast is enough of a fix and just being on the water is enough almost all the time. Missus wants a loo and there's an element of floating caravan too. Because of horses, dogs, chickens etc being close to home is necessary. Boat would be 30 minutes from home, so use will change - perhaps less so with the 25' option than the 30' for various reasons. I also have grown up step-daughter who lives inland 150 miles away. A floating holiday home would enable them to use too and we could spend more time with them and grandchild. A boat with room for 8-10 and that would sleep 6 is a plus. Missus doesn't do slow very well - a rag n stick conversation a few years ago was a very short one!
3 - More what other-half wants, but yes! The feedback and thoughts are very useful however and I may just hold out for a good deal on a twin diesel... Ready cash talks at the end of the day! That age thing bothers me a bit however if I'm honest... Enough to stop me? Probably not. Repent at leisure maybe? :ambivalence:

 

[Portofino]

Reminded me a bit of this

An American investment banker was taking a much-needed vacation in a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. The boat had several large, fresh fish in it.

The investment banker was impressed by the quality of the fish and asked the Mexican how long it took to catch them.

The Mexican replied, “Only a little while.”

The banker then asked why he didn’t stay out longer and catch more fish?

The Mexican fisherman replied he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs.

The American then asked “But what do you do with the rest of your time?”

The Mexican fisherman replied, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos: I have a full and busy life, señor.”

The investment banker scoffed, “I am an Ivy League MBA, and I could help you. You could spend more time fishing and with the proceeds buy a bigger boat, and with the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats until eventually you would have a whole fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to the middleman you could sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You could control the product, processing and distribution.”

Then he added, “Of course, you would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City where you would run your growing enterprise.”

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But señor, how long will this all take?”

To which the American replied, “15-20 years.”

“But what then?” asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich. You could make millions.”

“Millions, señor? Then what?”

To which the investment banker replied, “Then you would retire. You could move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”

Crikey how true !

Only thing I disagree with is the assumption of returning to where it all started -the "village "

Yup -did that retired @ 54 sold up .Now live in a better "fishing village " -In Switzerland -ski resort
Debating as I type ,tomorrow either Snow board as its snowing outside ,Nordic ski for a better full body work out or another day alpine (downhill ) .It's Brit 1/2 T this week in the alps !
Hmmm , decide in the AM .

Earlier this week drove over the Simplon pass ( listening to Matt Munro "on days like these " to Antibes /La Napoule ck on boat - have not seen it since Sept --too busy It all works as it should guardiene got a pat on the back .

Returned via St Gothard Tunnel .Boot packed with prosecco

Busy Chalet lots of "sets of friends / relatives flying in until mid April ---- then back to Med boating for a rest .