Trader rises like a phoenix from the ashes

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I'll leave how virtuous and wonderful people solicitors are for another day !

DAKA, please don't think for a second any argument with Tranona is a sail / power thing, he's just the same sail to sail... :D
 
Seajet said:
I'll leave how virtuous and wonderful people solicitors are for another day !
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The point I was trying, inelegantly to make, was that the regulators have seen fit not to require my virtue to be put to the test by imposing a massive disincentive to my behaving otherwise. :D
 
Seajet said:
DAKA, please don't think for a second any argument with Tranona is a sail / power thing, he's just the same sail to sail... :D
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I didnt know he was a sailor, that explains it..........
Just burying his head in the past , refusing to accept improvement ;)




(only joking, Tranona is clearly very knowledgeable, I have just so far failed to explain my concerns adequately in such a way as to be taken seriously).
 
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I didnt see that coming, where did you spring from ?, like one of those RS700 in Chichester on a windy day, suddenly fixed in my Danforth cross hairs shouting the odds :D
 
A perfectly reasonable situation ... ;)

I've just been monitoring the thread - I also dislike these pheonix companies - especially when it appears that the only loosers are the clients and suppliers ...

I do hope that Toby Chappell is a different person to his father Tony Chappell - but I would be pretty warey of trusting the company ...
 
I cannot comment on the BAP or the Tarquin situation as neither of these were my business but I can comment generally.

The majority of Brokers and Dealers are good honest people. There are a few who have been caught out and as we all know it is the same in any business.

Daka's point of membership fee income is an interesting one!
The Brokers associations are to my knowledge only two in number.
One is ABYA/YBDSA of which I am not a member as I do not see the point in paying them a fee for something that I view as intangible. They may well argue against this view but I am simply not a member.

I am a paying member of the BMF as this provides our Company with many benefits, one of which is with BMF/RYA approved contract terms that many UK owners ask for.
That said, as in my last post, I do always use the HISWA Contracts for my Dutch sales. The UK BMF one is what is expected by UK boaters for a Brokerage deal and is basically sound...........I reiterate that I have asked both the BMF and RYA to look at the Dutch contracts and use their terms instead as they are so much better at protecting both parties, should the need arise.
I am also a member of the BRBA which is part of the BMF but it is not a separate fee paying association and comes as part of our fees to the BMF.
This is a very good association and does keep its members on our toes re proper Clients Accounts, among other things. We have to submit annual declarations of conformity in relation to our Clients Account for example.

I personally know of two Solicitors who have done penance for misuse of Clients Funds so even they are not immune to bad behaviour by some of their membership. This was, in fairness, some years ago but I am sure the temptation is still there for one wishing to take the risk.

For the record, we do NOT see potential customers as Marks - we do not see them as someone to dupe of their hard earned money.

Imperial customers share our passion for Boating, at all levels of expenditure, all have worked hard to get the ability to buy and own a boat. Fortunately we have (I hope!:o) a reputation as a good and honest business who go the extra distance to provide a fantastic product with good support before, during and after the sale process - all at a fair price.

Perhaps this is why we have two boats nominated in this Years Boat of the Year Awards tonight?:eek:
 
Imperial One said:
The majority of Brokers and Dealers are good honest people.

I think we all agree with that:)

Daka's point of membership fee income is an interesting one!
The Brokers associations are to my knowledge only two in number.
One is ABYA/YBDSA of which I am not a member as I do not see the point in paying them a fee for something that I view as intangible.
it's a shame there isnt just one and then it could be compulsory to be a member with some controls in place

I am a paying member of the BMF as this provides our Company with many benefits, one of which is with BMF/RYA approved contract terms that many UK owners ask for.
That said, as in my last post, I do always use the HISWA Contracts for my Dutch sales. The UK BMF one is what is expected by UK boaters for a Brokerage deal and is basically sound...........I reiterate that I have asked both the BMF and RYA to look at the Dutch contracts and use their terms instead as they are so much better at protecting both parties, should the need arise.
I am also a member of the BRBA which is part of the BMF but it is not a separate fee paying association and comes as part of our fees to the BMF.
This is a very good association and does keep its members on our toes re proper Clients Accounts, among other things. We have to submit annual declarations of conformity in relation to our Clients Account for example.

I wish Troana had brought this to my attention, it would have shut me up years ago

I personally know of two Solicitors who have done penance for misuse of Clients Funds so even they are not immune to bad behaviour by some of their membership. This was, in fairness, some years ago but I am sure the temptation is still there for one wishing to take the risk.

At least with a solicitor there is a compensation scheme in place.

For the record, we do NOT see potential customers as Marks - we do not see them as someone to dupe of their hard earned money.
a reputable company with healthy accounts has no need to treat the punters as marks, its when the dodgy companies experience difficulties that the problems start

Imperial customers share our passion for Boating, at all levels of expenditure, all have worked hard to get the ability to buy and own a boat. Fortunately we have (I hope!:o) a reputation as a good and honest business who go the extra distance to provide a fantastic product with good support before, during and after the sale process - all at a fair price.

Perhaps this is why we have two boats nominated in this Years Boat of the Year Awards tonight?:eek:

Good luck :)
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Now the bit that Troana missed out , look out for BMF membership , copy paste from BMF code of conduct

5. Handling Customer Monies (Brokerage)
Boat brokers must protect customer monies by using:
1. A solicitor’s trust account (escrow account) whereby
1.1 A solicitor holds the money until the transaction is completed. This will require an
agreement between the parties and the account will require all party signatures for
funds to be released.
1.2 Confirmation of use of this method will be required by BMF from the member’s
solicitor that such an arrangement is in existence initially and then at any such
intervals as the BMF may decide. Members are also required to sign a declaration
that such an account is being used to hold brokerage monies. Members will then be
required to declare that such arrangements continue to be in place and that such an
account is used to keep brokerage monies on an annual basis via the BMF turnover
declaration form.
OR;
2. A separate client bank account whereby:
2.1 The member will set up a bank account exclusively for holding customer monies,
preferably with a separate bank to that which holds the business’s other accounts.
2.2 Confirmation will be required from the member’s bank that such an account is in
existence initially and then at any such intervals as the BMF may decide. Members
are also required to sign a declaration that such an account is being used to hold
brokerage monies. Members will then be required to declare that such arrangements
continue to be in place and that such an account is used to keep brokerage monies
on an annual basis via the BMF turnover declaration form.
Suggested wording acceptable to the BMF for confirmation from the bank is shown in
appendix A or available directly from the BMF.
Guidance:
Client or customer monies for the purpose of this code is defined as any and all
deposits and sale proceeds. All such monies must be held in one of the two above
described accounts or pass through these accounts before being passed on to the
vendor or back to the purchaser in order to ensure that all such monies are clearly
identified as monies belonging to clients. At no time, should any such monies be held
or passed through any other business account save for debit and credit card
transactions which may be paid into a company’s general account and must be
transferred immediately from that account to the client account in order to remain
distinct as client monies. Where the majority of card transactions are for brokerage,
credit and debit transactions should be set up to go directly into the client account
and any non brokerage monies transferred out of the client account to the other
account immediately.
You must not hold any money other than client money in the designated client
account. Legitimate deductions, for example, VAT, commission, and interest may be
withdrawn from the client account and transferred to another business account when
these deductions are due.
[/COLOR]

Well its a big step in the right direction :)
Just need compulsory membership to turn 'code of conduct' into 'Regulations' and a compensation scheme in place for the unlikely few incidents that go wrong :)
 
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benjenbav said:
Pete, I think that's the point to focus on. As I think you know, I am a solicitor. My business handles substantial amounts of client account money and we are acutely aware of our responsibilities and the rules governing the management of that money. However, the absolute bottom line of what stops us from using client money to fund our business (apart - it goes without saying - for our unimpeachable sense of honesty) is the fact that we know that the sanction is that we would be banned from continuing in business as solicitors.
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I think there are some crucial differences between solicitors' client accounts and brokers' client accounts. First is that most solicitors are partnerships which make the partners jointly liable for the liabilities of the partnership; yes I know some law cos are LLPs now. Second, solicitors are regulated and there are tried and tested procedures for bringing fraudulent solicitors to account.
On the contrary, brokers/dealers are invariably limited co's so, in the case of fraudulent misuse of client accounts, IMHO the BMF/ABYA/YBDSA or whichever body the broker is a member of, can only ban the ltd co, not the individuals owning or running the brokerage. So whichever individual actually misused the account can simply set up again under another ltd co. And I dont think that these membership organisations have the resources to investigate cases of client account misuse in order to gather evidence on the fraudulent activities of individuals and take that evidence to the Police. So, in the case of B A Peters where money which should have been placed in a client account and wasn't, AFAIK, no individuals were investigated by the organisation of which Peters was a member and no prosecutions were brought.
 
Deleted User said:
I think there are some crucial differences between solicitors' client accounts and brokers' client accounts. First is that most solicitors are partnerships which make the partners jointly liable for the liabilities of the partnership; yes I know some law cos are LLPs now. Second, solicitors are regulated and there are tried and tested procedures for bringing fraudulent solicitors to account.
On the contrary, brokers/dealers are invariably limited co's so, in the case of fraudulent misuse of client accounts, IMHO the BMF/ABYA/YBDSA or whichever body the broker is a member of, can only ban the ltd co, not the individuals owning or running the brokerage. So whichever individual actually misused the account can simply set up again under another ltd co. And I dont think that these membership organisations have the resources to investigate cases of client account misuse in order to gather evidence on the fraudulent activities of individuals and take that evidence to the Police. So, in the case of B A Peters where money which should have been placed in a client account and wasn't, AFAIK, no individuals were investigated by the organisation of which Peters was a member and no prosecutions were brought.
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It gets a bit worse.........

If a solicitor borrows the clients funds he is chucked out and compensation is paid to the victim.
If an Insurance Broker borrows the clients funds he is chucked out and has broken a specific law introduced in 2004 ish, he risks jail and a compensation scheme pays the victim.

If a Yacht Broker borrows the cash he hasnt broken any law, he may get a stiff letter and may find it difficult to rejoin the same federation but is still free to operate as a Yacht Broker.........no compensation scheme is available, the mark looses the lot.

A yacht Broker is still free to start up again in a new name or even continue to trade in the same name and borrow the funds again and it is unlikely a prosecution will be successful.

There may be other things Chapple gets into trouble for but borrowing from the clients account is a fairly safe and common practice for a Yacht Broker.(excepting Imperial one of course)
 
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Imperials post makes a lot of sense and commendable too.

As far as ORY, we provide escrow accounts provided by independant lawyers, a declaration of Lien at each stage payment and a right to Vendee the build with a partner yard should the worst happen. Finally you can also elect to go the L/C route should you wish, although you are liable for the fees. Insurance during build and shipping is held in both names.

I would also advocate a credit check on the Co/broker and a last set of accounts, do a bit of snooping, talk with suppliers and get the lay of the land. Do not be paying stage payments up front only when work is complete do you release funds from escrow.

Leave a chunk on money due on final commissing so you have some leverage should you need.
 
I always remember reading about when Moonraker Boats went bankrupt. Apparently there were nearly completed boats in the workshop and the Liquidators seized them. I read that one owner turned up at night with a low loader, cut the lock, loaded the Moonraker onto the low loader and took it away.
I seem to remember that the person who owned Moonraker alaso built Sports Cars and committed suicide in the bath using a razor blade, but when I looked it up on Winkapedia it says he had a heart attack.
If I had the money to buy one of these yachts I would perhaps start off by paying a deposit by Credit Card to get extra protection.
 
Jim@sea said:
I always remember reading about when Moonraker Boats went bankrupt. Apparently there were nearly completed boats in the workshop and the Liquidators seized them. I read that one owner turned up at night with a low loader, cut the lock, loaded the Moonraker onto the low loader and took it away.
I seem to remember that the person who owned Moonraker alaso built Sports Cars and committed suicide in the bath using a razor blade, but when I looked it up on Winkapedia it says he had a heart attack.
If I had the money to buy one of these yachts I would perhaps start off by paying a deposit by Credit Card to get extra protection.
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It's a great story, but I do wonder how they physically got a 36ft motorboat onto the low loader? They're quite heavy things to lift...

I'm not an expert on credit cards, but I'd be surprised if sticking the initial (say) £10K on a card meant the card would cover you in the event of a million pound boat sale going wrong. Happy to be educated though.
 
£30 k max I'm afraid
ari said:
It's a great story, but I do wonder how they physically got a 36ft motorboat onto the low loader? They're quite heavy things to lift...

I'm not an expert on credit cards, but I'd be surprised if sticking the initial (say) £10K on a card meant the card would cover you in the event of a million pound boat sale going wrong. Happy to be educated though.
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£30 k max I'm afraid......

Section 75 Refunds
 
Jim@sea said:
I always remember reading about when Moonraker Boats went bankrupt. Apparently there were nearly completed boats in the workshop and the Liquidators seized them. I read that one owner turned up at night with a low loader, cut the lock, loaded the Moonraker onto the low loader and took it away.
I seem to remember that the person who owned Moonraker alaso built Sports Cars and committed suicide in the bath using a razor blade, but when I looked it up on Winkapedia it says he had a heart attack.
If I had the money to buy one of these yachts I would perhaps start off by paying a deposit by Credit Card to get extra protection.
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It was Colin Chapman of Lotus Formula 1 Team and Lotus Cars. JCL that produced the Moonraker had gone into liquidation two years before he died of a heart attack.

ari said:
It's a great story, but I do wonder how they physically got a 36ft motorboat onto the low loader? They're quite heavy things to lift...
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That's something I've always wondered. It was a farmer who had paid for the Moonraker and then turned up at the gates one night with a lorry and some bolt croppers, perhaps he also had a crane! This was a time before 24 hour security. The receivers didn't attempt to recover the liberated Moonraker.
 
A friend that was having a special car built by MG Rover got a call and a heads up that the hammer was about to fall on the company, he rushed down to Birmingham and got his car and trailered it home to Wick, it was a limousine version of the Rover 75.
About the same time another friend had also got the heads up and went to collect his car, he also got two spare bodyshells with it :)
This is the car:
 
Having had two boats from new, a Southerly and a Hardy, where the yards have gone bust within a few years, I read threads like this and realise I was lucky. Even as Chartered Accountant the amount of due diligence I can do is limited, and then there is "boat buyers mist" where specifying the gear takes over from worrying too much who is banking the cheques.

I don't think I would like to buy new a third time, I'd be wondering if my luck was due to run out.
 
Everybody mentions his recent exploits. In nthe late 1970's I was involved with the Elkins yard in Christchurch (E.F Elkins & Son ) and......yes Mr Chappell was involved in the demise of this well respected British yard - so he started quite young.
 
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