Trader rises like a phoenix from the ashes

[mjf]

hi Deleted User. I too was rather surprised to read the advert for the new company and the huge praise heaped on it for the marvellous assistance they provided from the onset to finish the in build craft. Shameful that MBY did not complete the picture properly in their advert and explain how the son financed the deal and new ownership structure.


I can only assume IPC managed to get some of the money it was owed back in exchange for a glossy advert and pix.

I cannot understand how this stuff is allowed frankly.

Its a matter of time before the smell of burnt fingers fills the air.

 

[wakeup]

Mike, a great incisive post. It is lazy journalism I'm afraid on the part of IPC, but you would have thought that IPC corp having had its fingers burnt would have said nufs enough with that mob.

You can just imagine the conversation "hey, son, you buy the company off the liquidators for £440k, I'll get me £380k back and I refund it all to you. You then end up with a newco for only £60k with an order book for 7 traders and we wipe out our million pounds of debt. What do you say lad? I will of course need to lay low for a while...." all tongue in cheek of course

 

[awakelin]

"The truth about Trader Motor Yachts" - well far from the whole truth. While Tarquin Boat Company Ltd may have had debts of the order of 1.2m there were three linked companies run as a group - TBC Ltd, Emsworth Shipyard Ltd (that did the work fitting out the Traders) and Emsworth Marina Co Ltd that leased the shipyard, offices and pontoons. All went into administration together and in total owed over £4m. That is an awful lot of very unhappy creditors (of which I am one). Also saying that Trader Motor Yachts took up the TBC orders while having no obligation to do so is a bit ingenuous as taking over the orders was part of the deal reached with the administrators so they were obliged to follow up on that. One interesting follow up is Tony Chappell has been forced into personal bankruptcy by two of his creditors who pursued a private fraud case against him.

 

[mjf]

Awakelin, Welcome on here.

What you write is heaps better and more informative than what MB&Y say in print.

Hey Ho!

Very sorry btw that you suffered a loss with these people

 

[sarabande]

so, if ToNy Chappell is in any way connected with the admin of the new company, is he breaching company law ?

Does Companies House know about this shenanigans ?

What a knotted mess !

 

[MikeJ42]

I have never felt MBM were impartial in any of their editorials, then again, I don’t expect them to be. The industry is far too small to alienate any potential partner or income stream.

I guess IPC consider Trader a strategic business partner, however dubious they might be.

 

[Seajet]

OK I'm a sail type, but I know a well made boat when I see one, and can appreciate it when I see it in motor boats.

However, my boat lives near Emsworth Marina, and I often call in either for a visitors berth or more likely by car to the chandlery ( recommended compared to any alternatives in the Emsworth area BTW ).

I used to look at the Traders on shore, with rows of ripples in their slabs of grp, and think " Who the hell would buy that, Stevie Wonder ?! "

It seems there's bankrupt as in unlucky and / or a victim, and there are other interpretations - remember the fuss over a planning application by the guy who used to run Opal Marine ?

As he has a £5million house on the side of Chichester Harbour, I wouldn't mind at all being that sort of bankrupt...seem to recall boat buyers drew the short straw with that one too.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Great post Deleted User
You certainly have some broad shoulders to be the first one to bring this to every ones attention. I hope people on the forum give you any support that's needed.
Well done
David

Thanks David but all the info is out there in the public domain and I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said before. I do have a bee in my bonnet about dishonest people who make a career out of busting companies and setting up again as if it never happened, whilst their creditors are left to pick up the pieces. Unfortunately, during the course of running my own business, I have been shafted a time or two by such individuals.
I'm not saying that the Chappells have been wilfully dishonest but in the UK, individuals are allowed to bust companies and walk away scott free. The secured creditors like the banks and HMRC always get their money whilst the little people always lose out. Yes, the dti do eventually get around to banning individuals from being directors if they bust companies regularly but they are too slow to act and the punishment is derisory.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

"The truth about Trader Motor Yachts" - well far from the whole truth. While Tarquin Boat Company Ltd may have had debts of the order of 1.2m there were three linked companies run as a group - TBC Ltd, Emsworth Shipyard Ltd (that did the work fitting out the Traders) and Emsworth Marina Co Ltd that leased the shipyard, offices and pontoons. All went into administration together and in total owed over £4m. That is an awful lot of very unhappy creditors (of which I am one). Also saying that Trader Motor Yachts took up the TBC orders while having no obligation to do so is a bit ingenuous as taking over the orders was part of the deal reached with the administrators so they were obliged to follow up on that. One interesting follow up is Tony Chappell has been forced into personal bankruptcy by two of his creditors who pursued a private fraud case against him.

awakelin, thanks for posting and I sympathise with your loss, having been in a similar position myself. I'm shocked that MBY's article did not see fit to mention this and I'd like to ask the Editor why. Good news on Tony Chappell though

 

[PaulGooch]

<snip>Good news on Tony Chappell though

Don't hold your breath Mike. I'll bet good money his personal assets are tied up in such a fashion that a personal bankruptcy will not affect him materially in any way.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Don't hold your breath Mike. I'll bet good money his personal assets are tied up in such a fashion that a personal bankruptcy will not affect him materially in any way.

Yes of course, you're right. The house and all the other assets will be in the wife's name. Lets hope she runs off with the milkman and files for divorce

 

[Gludy]

I am in grenada now so have only just caught up with this thread.

I do feel lucky that I managed a full refund plus £100k towards expenses - I lost £60k and feel lucky to have lost so little.

Tony Chappel explained to me at the start of the battle that the boat was worth more than the company and hence there was no way to win. I set out to remove his future sales and that did hurt him enough to find that the best way out for him was to pay me for the boat and expenses and then just flog it again one the rumpus had died down and that is what happened. Later victims were not so lucky.

Because of my experience I have from time to time been contacted by other victims of other companies and have done my best to help them. I know some real horror stories that cannot be made public until the legal processes are over but these companies are in the sailing boat market and overseas.

Lets hope they can snare no more victims.

I guess there are still some who will trade with the new set up because they do not read the history - simply to use Google.

 

[ash12]

I do have a bee in my bonnet about dishonest people who make a career out of busting companies and setting up again as if it never happened, whilst their creditors are left to pick up the pieces. Unfortunately, during the course of running my own business, I have been shafted a time or two by such individuals.

That used to happen to my families business quite a lot in the late 80's and early 90's. You would get a new company ordering stuff in steady amounts and then order absolutely loads and the first few times we sold the goods and then the buyer went into liquidation, but after that we got wise and it was also easier to check out individuals and companies.

 

[Richard Shead]

Stand A59 at LBS

awakelin, thanks for posting and I sympathise with your loss, having been in a similar position myself. I'm shocked that MBY's article did not see fit to mention this and I'd like to ask the Editor why. Good news on Tony Chappell though

There all week and I will ensue MBY eds are there to answer the questions as I dont have the answers.

 

[Gludy]

IMHO there is no excuse whatsoever for MBY printing the article.
In doing so they render all they write to be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[Jim@sea]

Well written. What is it with boats that persuades people to part with loads of money to a Limited Company that has limited assets. Of course its wording "Limited Liability" should give an indication that the firm doesn't have the confidence to operate as a sole trader or partnership.
I seem to remember in the 70's the boat firm (Ltd Co) owned by Colin Chapman (Lotus) went bump and a few people had paid stage payments during the construction, which on going into liquidation became an asset of the liquidator, and the boat owners then joined the 10% club. I also remember that a boat owner was supposed to have cut the lock to the factory door, driven in a low loader, loaded his boat and driven away with it and the liquidator did nothing.
And just look at Crown Currency Exchange how people parted with money to a Ltd Co which "apparently" may have been trading whilst insolvent.
Surely a scheme could be set up with a boat builders Bank whereby the buyer pays stage payments directly into a deposit account but still in their name with a legal document drawn up to the effect that once the boat is ready the money will move from the customers account to the boat builders account but only if the customer has signed a "Satisfaction Note"
There are a lot of businesses out there who are only operating because they are using suppliers credit together with customers money to pay the wages, but for how long.

 

[maybh1]

Interesting, there seems to be 4 new Traders and some used ones, turned up at Universal marina in the last few months.....

I had an e mail shot from them a couple of weeks ago which stated:

"Four new Traders have been handed over to new owners at a joint ceremony at Universal"

I hope the new owners have as much pleasure from their new Traders as we have had from ours over the last 11 years

May
xx

 

[Tranona]

Surely a scheme could be set up with a boat builders Bank whereby the buyer pays stage payments directly into a deposit account but still in their name with a legal document drawn up to the effect that once the boat is ready the money will move from the customers account to the boat builders account but only if the customer has signed a "Satisfaction Note"
There are a lot of businesses out there who are only operating because they are using suppliers credit together with customers money to pay the wages, but for how long.

Alternatives are available with many builders and dealers. A straightforward client account is the most obvious, but some dealers avoid it because their suppler (the builder the other side of the world) demands stage payments. The standard BMF new build contract allows for transfer of part complete boat in line with stage payments, so if the builder goes bust the boat is not part of his assets. This is not entirely satisfactory as the owner still has the problem of getting his boat finished. Many overseas builders (for example HR) offer a bank guarantee and the contract is direct with the builder who pays commission to the agent.

Buying from a Ltd company and paying deposits etc with no security is a common situation in all forms of retail activity, but it is surprising in some ways that people part with large sums in relation to boats without security, but maybe the excitement of the dream knocks common sense out of the window.

Having said that I bought my boat through a long term charter management deal with very limited security other than the contract. 6 years from first payment to getting full title, but it all went smoothly. A lot of money, but not enough to kill me if it all went pear shaped. A calculated risk. However, no way would I buy a new boat from a dealer (or builder) without securing any advanced payments.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Alternatives are available with many builders and dealers. A straightforward client account is the most obvious, but some dealers avoid it because their suppler (the builder the other side of the world) demands stage payments. The standard BMF new build contract allows for transfer of part complete boat in line with stage payments, so if the builder goes bust the boat is not part of his assets. This is not entirely satisfactory as the owner still has the problem of getting his boat finished. Many overseas builders (for example HR) offer a bank guarantee and the contract is direct with the builder who pays commission to the agent.

.

Thats all well and good but what is a buyer going to do with a half finished boat sitting in a shed in Taiwan and what if the builder himself goes under? The problem really is the stage payment system and how much money the buyer has to pay out before he receives his boat. Coincedentally, I was looking at Nordhavn's terms of payment the other day and they do recognise the potential risk for the buyer by keeping their stage payments to a minimum. They require 10% with order, 10% during the build process (cant remember exactly when), 75% on handover to the customer and the remaining 5% after commissioning and completion of snagging. This seems eminently fair to me as only (!) 20% of the purchase price is at risk and the buyer can hold back 5% until he's satisfied with the boat. Unfortunately, I dont think that many boat builders/dealers are financially strong enough to offer these kind of terms.

 

[DAKA]

Thats all well and good but what is a buyer going to do with a half finished boat sitting in a shed in Taiwan and what if the builder himself goes under? The problem really is the stage payment system and how much money the buyer has to pay out before he receives his boat. Coincedentally, I was looking at Nordhavn's terms of payment the other day and they do recognise the potential risk for the buyer by keeping their stage payments to a minimum. They require 10% with order, 10% during the build process (cant remember exactly when), 75% on handover to the customer and the remaining 5% after commissioning and completion of snagging. This seems eminently fair to me as only (!) 20% of the purchase price is at risk and the buyer can hold back 5% until he's satisfied with the boat. Unfortunately, I dont think that many boat builders/dealers are financially strong enough to offer these kind of terms.

Perhaps the payments could be paid into a clients account (correctly formatted) and the builder could borrow from the Bank until complete.
If the Bank can see an order and see the payment for the order sitting in a protected clients account then there is something seriously wrong with the business model if the Bank are still uneasy about lending.