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Anonymous
Guest
That will be interesting. Good luck. I am 99.9% sure that you have no liability.
Torrevieja and ISDMT Tax
- Thread starter Grehan
- Start date
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
Maybe they have been reading this thread on the forum, so decided to pay you a visit ! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Shearwater
Well-Known Member
I received a letter from my (Catalunya) marina during October advising they were required by the Guardia Civil in Madrid to provide fullest details of all boats and of their owners. This was obviously a letter to all the tenants not just to me as a foreigner so perhaps things are afoot generally. Hopefully the boat, being less than 7.5 metros, will not be of interest to anyone.
JamesFrance
Well-Known Member
Today the Guardia are back along the pontoons, apparently photographing every boat in the marina. Even local dayboats and the like. Maybe it is a make work exercise, as they don't appear much unlike in the old days.
In 1972 I anchored in Cadaques bay and saw 2 of them standing on the beach in the hot sun. When I rowed ashore 2 hours later I found they were waiting to ask where I had arrived from. Having written that down they then strolled off into the town, so not a lot new really.
In 1972 I anchored in Cadaques bay and saw 2 of them standing on the beach in the hot sun. When I rowed ashore 2 hours later I found they were waiting to ask where I had arrived from. Having written that down they then strolled off into the town, so not a lot new really.
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Anonymous
Guest
No, I don't think that it's a 'make work' exercise. It fits in with what we have been told over the last 9 months; Madrid has given instructions for this tax to be collected. Why? We don't know. We don't even know which tax it is and to whom it applies -- i.e. nobody can yet cite a Code (even the lawyer I paid gave me the code of something that is clearly not applicable). Time to take a short holiday, James? They cannot interview an empty boat.
Grehan
Well-Known Member
When we were in Bajadilla I believe the marina office submitted weekly reports to . . the Guardia? Aduana? . . . of which boats were present in the marina. Seems logical. Did they also include which owners were present on board, I wonder?
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Anonymous
Guest
When I looked at our page on the Almerimar computer I noticed a field marked 'Habitacion' Si/No and we were marked 'No'. I supposed that Habitacion meant 'living aboard'. When the inspectors visited Almerimar in early 2008 (witnessed by the Dutch lady I mentioned earlier), they were given the paper records but they were not going through the computer. All payments are recorded. A daily charge is made for water and electricity and almost everyone pays that when they are on board (a few don't). Most people disconnect from electricity when they go away for more than a few days so checking electricity payments is a very good indicator of people being on board. Knocking on the boat to see if they get a reply is another good way, of course. Having a local address for contact would be a dead giveaway.
pipemma
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
it has been suggested, is 182 days, alternatively 183 days, or 90 days, or . . . In other words no-one is quite sure.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm afraid I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if I'm repeating anyone, but this sounds like standard tax law re where you are resident for tax purposes. If you spend 183 or more days in any one year in the same country you are resident there for tax purposes. If you spend an *average* of 91 or more days per annum in a country over 3 or 4 years, then you are deemed tax resident. This is something we became rather familiar with when we moved to Switzerland, and is something we are keeping in mind if we ever decide to sell up and go sailing in the future. For instance, if one were working on flotillas and wanted to remain tax resident in your home country, you need to make sure you don't work more than 5 months in one country, and that you change flotilla country every year unless you are moving every couple of months. AIUI, of course - I am not a tax accountant (thank God for small mercies lol)
it has been suggested, is 182 days, alternatively 183 days, or 90 days, or . . . In other words no-one is quite sure.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm afraid I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if I'm repeating anyone, but this sounds like standard tax law re where you are resident for tax purposes. If you spend 183 or more days in any one year in the same country you are resident there for tax purposes. If you spend an *average* of 91 or more days per annum in a country over 3 or 4 years, then you are deemed tax resident. This is something we became rather familiar with when we moved to Switzerland, and is something we are keeping in mind if we ever decide to sell up and go sailing in the future. For instance, if one were working on flotillas and wanted to remain tax resident in your home country, you need to make sure you don't work more than 5 months in one country, and that you change flotilla country every year unless you are moving every couple of months. AIUI, of course - I am not a tax accountant (thank God for small mercies lol)
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
.... Knocking on the boat to see if they get a reply is another good way, of course.....
[/ QUOTE ]Thinking back, you were both a bit twitchy when I as a complete stranger knocked on your hull in Almerimar, two years ago. You made reference to Spanish tax inspectors at the time, but I didn't register why - now I do! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
.... Knocking on the boat to see if they get a reply is another good way, of course.....
[/ QUOTE ]Thinking back, you were both a bit twitchy when I as a complete stranger knocked on your hull in Almerimar, two years ago. You made reference to Spanish tax inspectors at the time, but I didn't register why - now I do! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
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Anonymous
Guest
Are you Big Nick - Lechwe, or a different Nick?
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
Yep, one and the same. I kind of assumed you had picked up on my name change. Renamed the boat last year too, just to confuse you further !
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Anonymous
Guest
No, I hadn't followed those changes. I can't think why I would have thought that you were a tax inspector so maybe I was just worried that you would go through one of your metamorphoses on the dockside?
alorwin
Well-Known Member
Does anyone know if this has been followed up by the RYA, I would hope it would be of some interest to them.
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Anonymous
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone know if this has been followed up by the RYA, I would hope it would be of some interest to them.
[/ QUOTE ]In a previous thread not so long ago someone stated that the RYA's reply to a letter about this subject was that the RYA's business does not extend to the tax affairs of non-resident Brits (or words to that effect). I asked the Cruising Association if they were interested and I was told that there was no way, so I funded my own legal investigation.
Does anyone know if this has been followed up by the RYA, I would hope it would be of some interest to them.
[/ QUOTE ]In a previous thread not so long ago someone stated that the RYA's reply to a letter about this subject was that the RYA's business does not extend to the tax affairs of non-resident Brits (or words to that effect). I asked the Cruising Association if they were interested and I was told that there was no way, so I funded my own legal investigation.
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
There's been a fairly comprehensive post on the CA website on boat taaxation matters for a year or more. It doesn't extend to personal taxation. The boat tax paper is only available to members.
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Anonymous
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
There's been a fairly comprehensive post on the CA website on boat taaxation matters for a year or more. It doesn't extend to personal taxation. The boat tax paper is only available to members.
[/ QUOTE ]Jim, I read that before paying a firm of lawyers.
It's one thing to have well-intentioned posts in a forum such as YBW and quite another thing to have a document such as the one you refer to, which gives legal guidance, issued by an organisation with the stature of the Cruising Association, yet with no input from a lawyer.
This is a major issue for British yacht-owners who are keeping their boats in Spain and we do not know the true legal situation. I believe that a lawyer needs to pull this together. Who better than the Cruising Association to fund or at least organise that?
I suspect that while this problem has surfaced in Spain it may eventually apply in other EU countries, if it does not already do so. As you will have seen, the EU rules seem to allow states to tax the vessel even if the owner is non-resident....an entirely different issue and of huge concern to any yacht owner whose boat is in an EU country. You can be fairly sure that counties will be facing a severe tax shortfall this year and strict enforcement and collection is likely.
There's been a fairly comprehensive post on the CA website on boat taaxation matters for a year or more. It doesn't extend to personal taxation. The boat tax paper is only available to members.
[/ QUOTE ]Jim, I read that before paying a firm of lawyers.
It's one thing to have well-intentioned posts in a forum such as YBW and quite another thing to have a document such as the one you refer to, which gives legal guidance, issued by an organisation with the stature of the Cruising Association, yet with no input from a lawyer.
This is a major issue for British yacht-owners who are keeping their boats in Spain and we do not know the true legal situation. I believe that a lawyer needs to pull this together. Who better than the Cruising Association to fund or at least organise that?
I suspect that while this problem has surfaced in Spain it may eventually apply in other EU countries, if it does not already do so. As you will have seen, the EU rules seem to allow states to tax the vessel even if the owner is non-resident....an entirely different issue and of huge concern to any yacht owner whose boat is in an EU country. You can be fairly sure that counties will be facing a severe tax shortfall this year and strict enforcement and collection is likely.
alexchumillas
New Member
This is aboslutely ilegal. They have no right to tax people for the only fact of having the boat in Spain if they are not tax residents.
Alex Chumillas (Barcelona) Nautical tax advisor
alex@barcelonataxlaw.es
Alex Chumillas (Barcelona) Nautical tax advisor
alex@barcelonataxlaw.es
alexchumillas
New Member
Please have a look on this text
http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/Fiscal/o3697-2008-eha.html
There are different attachments whith the prices of 2ond hand boats, as well as engine valuations.
Or search this document:EHA 3697 2008, in google
Alex Chumillas - Tax advisor
alex@barcelonataxlaw.es
http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/Fiscal/o3697-2008-eha.html
There are different attachments whith the prices of 2ond hand boats, as well as engine valuations.
Or search this document:EHA 3697 2008, in google
Alex Chumillas - Tax advisor
alex@barcelonataxlaw.es
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Anonymous
Guest
I can't find where it says that this tax is only applicable to vehicles owned by residents; or that non-resident owners are specifically excluded.
Another important point -- more significant than the actual tax, for many people -- is the requirement that the vessel be re-registered as Spanish (the cost of doing so is high and the owner would have to pass the Spanish Padron de Yate exams).
Another important point -- more significant than the actual tax, for many people -- is the requirement that the vessel be re-registered as Spanish (the cost of doing so is high and the owner would have to pass the Spanish Padron de Yate exams).
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
It's one thing to have well-intentioned posts in a forum such as YBW and quite another thing to have a document such as the one you refer to, which gives legal guidance, issued by an organisation with the stature of the Cruising Association, yet with no input from a lawyer.
[/ QUOTE ] First, that document does not give 'legal' guidance; it advises members on the known aspects of Spanish law as they apply to boat owners, and clearly states that it is a 'best endeavors' exercise. It further states that for further clarification members should ask for local legal advice.
It then goes on to give the best advice available.
The advice of a Madrid professor of law was sought before publishing. Subsequently a maritime law specialist has seen the paper. Both accept that what was published was correct.
Apart from those two minor matters, my quote from your text above is correct. Doesn't leave much, does it?
All your posts have been about unknowns. You want to know whether the EU provision for re-registration of boats belonging to non-residents, but which have been in Spain longer than 183 days, has been implemented. There is no evidence that it has been implemented. You say 'prove it'. You can't prove a negative . . . the absence of something . . .
You've raised red herring about a '30 day rule'. The only relevace of 30 days I've so far found is that this is the period of grace allowed for payment of taxes once the amount has been agreed.
Meanwhile, criticising the only decent paper available on this subject on the grounds that it does not cover unknowns is quite illogical. Yachtsmen need advice, even if there is a risk that it not complete.
It's one thing to have well-intentioned posts in a forum such as YBW and quite another thing to have a document such as the one you refer to, which gives legal guidance, issued by an organisation with the stature of the Cruising Association, yet with no input from a lawyer.
[/ QUOTE ] First, that document does not give 'legal' guidance; it advises members on the known aspects of Spanish law as they apply to boat owners, and clearly states that it is a 'best endeavors' exercise. It further states that for further clarification members should ask for local legal advice.
It then goes on to give the best advice available.
The advice of a Madrid professor of law was sought before publishing. Subsequently a maritime law specialist has seen the paper. Both accept that what was published was correct.
Apart from those two minor matters, my quote from your text above is correct. Doesn't leave much, does it?
All your posts have been about unknowns. You want to know whether the EU provision for re-registration of boats belonging to non-residents, but which have been in Spain longer than 183 days, has been implemented. There is no evidence that it has been implemented. You say 'prove it'. You can't prove a negative . . . the absence of something . . .
You've raised red herring about a '30 day rule'. The only relevace of 30 days I've so far found is that this is the period of grace allowed for payment of taxes once the amount has been agreed.
Meanwhile, criticising the only decent paper available on this subject on the grounds that it does not cover unknowns is quite illogical. Yachtsmen need advice, even if there is a risk that it not complete.
