Torrevieja and ISDMT Tax

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. They say that Greece and Turkey are good.

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Have seen some "slowly rottings" in Greece,- boats sort of stuck to pontoons, satellite dishes bolted to the quay, squillions of liveaboard cats...
 
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Yes, it got high jacked, or rather drifted because a number of people were unable to differentiate between the issues. There is no "crackdown" on people legitimately keeping their boat in Spain if they are resident for tax purposes eleswhere. There may, however be difficulties for some people in proving that they should not be tax resident (liveaboards, for example).



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I am a UK resident but keep a UK registered car in Spain, its UK road legal with tax & MOT but I can only keep it there legally for 6 months of a year and it then has to be out of the country for 6 months before returning. If I overstay and get caught the car will be impounded and i will have to pay matriculation tax and to get in on Spanish plates
This is a EU directive for any means of transport including boats and specifically applies to non residents. See EU directive


"Temporary importation of certain means of transport for private use

Where a private vehicle, caravan, pleasure boat, private aircraft, tricycle or bicycle is imported temporarily, the item imported shall be exempt from the taxes specified in Article 1 for a period, continuous or otherwise, of not more than six months in any 12 months, provided that: (a) the individual importing such goods: (aa) has his normal residence in a Member State other than the Member State of temporary importation; "
 
Is there any provision for reclaiming this tax when you export your boat? A boat slowly cruising around the med could well be in a different country each year but spend more than six months in each country. 12% of the value of a boat strikes me as a very onerous tax for a one year stay in a country if not reclaimable.
 
That EU Directive really is a find....quite a breakthrough. However, the EU Directive is a minimum. States are permitted to be more liberal.... from that Directive...

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Special arrangements

1. Member States may maintain and/or introduce more liberal arrangements than those provided for in this Directive. In particular, they may, at the request of the importer, permit temporary importation for a period longer than those referred to in Articles 3 and 4 (2). In the latter event, Member States may levy the taxes mentioned in the Annex for periods exceeding those laid down by this Directive. Member States may also permit the private vehicles referred to in the second sentence of Article 3 (b) to be re-hired to a resident of the Member State of importation with a view to their re-exportation.

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My understanding is that the Spanish do not seek ISDMT from non-residents. However, I cannot give any link or evidence to support that.

Brilliant link, thank you.
 
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I wonder what we would say if a load of Spanish itinerants anchored their craft on the Lymington River or Poole Harbour year after year.

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A little unfair IMHO. Friends of ours are an elderly couple on very modest pensions who had lived aboard in Spain (and Gibraltar) for many years. Years that were more 'relaxed' than things are now. They don't have any UK property but fully 'paid their way' in Spain including marina fees, (other) taxes and registrations, looking after their boat, helping other folks in the marina, etc. in short behaving like model citizens - not itinerants. Whatever the legalities, this tax was not widely known - more like not known at all - in its application to boats in their type of situation. To be faced with a surprise visit from the Customs, a big bill (from their perspective) and a Precinto notice stuck on their boat was devastating and the price beyond their means without help from friends and family. This isn't meant as a sob story and the law is the law but those affected by ISDMT are not all 'a load of English itinerants' in Spain and on the lig.
 
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Friends of ours are an elderly couple on very modest pensions who had lived aboard in Spain (and Gibraltar) for many years. Years that were more 'relaxed' than things are now. They don't have any UK property but fully 'paid their way' in Spain including marina fees, (other) taxes and registrations, looking after their boat, helping other folks in the marina, etc. in short behaving like model citizens - not itinerants.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, and it is particularly sad when this happens. However, there has always been a requirement for non-Spanish to register with the local police after three months and the ISDMT is not new. It was certainly an issue for us when we arrived in Spain in 2005 (and since then you and I have had many discussions about this subject). When I was first in Almerimar I tried to discuss this with other Brits but the subject was unpopular....I was asked to stop talking about it as it would attract the attention of the Aduana /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Nobody wanted to know. Bad news. Ostrich.

I am sure that there were those who had never heard of the tax but surely anyone in a decent marina would have heard? Certainly, there are no leaflets explaining the tax for the benefit of yacht owners and that is UNFORGIVEABLE. Madrid has given instructions for this tax to be collected and in my view they should have sent leaflets to all marinas in the official EU languages, explaining the rules and giving instructions on how people could 'make their peace' with the state. The fact that they have not done that reflects very badly on the Spanish Government who are behaving like common bullies, targeting the elderly, and not the wealthy elderly at that.
 
do you not think it is the "large liveaboard community" which is attracting the attention of teh tax men...seems the same all over the world, once the government see an easy target they go for it.....I'm in a spanish marina, 640 berths, 2 liveaboards. no one seems to bother, even with the large number of german and british reg cars. we keep getting told that there is gonna be a crack down. Over teh last months a lot of brit cars have been pulled and impounded for not having correct docs, but as soon as the owner appears, produces docs and probably more importantly pays the fines they are on there way, no probs.
In general my answer has been to keep head down, not like an ostrich, more learn what you can but try and not get involved with local goverments et al. worked so far but am certain something will be on the horizon. Then we have no choice but to pay the money...as per UK, Spain, Belgium, germany...
regsards
Roy
 
For older folks who have been getting on with their Spanish liveaboard lives quietly and (almost) perfectly correctly for a number of years, without t'internet and all that jazz I do beg to differ and think that ISDMT could not have been a 'known quantity'. (Even if it should have been) Ignorance is of course no excuse, but we had never heard of it in the context of boats when we arrived in 2004 and not, in fact, until after about a year when things started 'happening'. I doubt you'll find much if any reference to ISDMT in the 'usual places' until relatively recently and there is/was confusion with the (now defunct I think) Wealth Tax, and other taxes, even from supposedly well informed sources.
For example, my 2005 copy of "You and the Law in Spain" has misleading and incorrect information, buried deep in the small print on a not entirely relevant page.
" . . Import duties on a used yacht still come to something more than half the value of the boat, depending on the evaluation the customs authorities make. In addition, you can only import the boat if you are taking up official residence in Spain . . "
I do agree about the general attitude of 'don't make waves, keep your head down, don't attract attention'. Historically that is way the Spanish (Mediterranean?) 'game' was played. Not entirely exploitatively or even foolishly, either. Maybe it still is the best strategy, but nowadays we all have to be so much more 'wise' and 'clued up'. Loss of innocence?

/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
Stretching the thread a little.....where is now "safe"?
Do you have these taxes in italy, greece, turkey etc. I'm thinking of next winter in Sardinia, any probs there?
What else is there to be aware of, i remember teh sardinia cruising tax, which did put a lot of superyachts off, i know 2 who refused to go. one went and turned around when presented with a huge bill, 40 -50 thousand euros springs to mind.

regards
Roy
 
Whilst examples of elderly and less wealthy people falling foul of Spanish bureaucracy are sad and regrettable it does not excuse the fact that we must live within the laws of whatever country we are visiting - no matter how badly they are administered.

This is not 'the good old days' when pensioners lived like kings on a few thousand pesetas a month. Spain has wised up. We would not expect to avoid taxes in Germany, Denmark, Sweden or Holland - but they are not semi feudal countries are they? It amuses me that we are [--word removed--] scared of US customs but try to make monkeys of the Spanish!

The notion the we are hard done by in Spain is nonsense; just because we choose to float on our own Little Empire in Torrevieja Harbour does not exempt us from the rules applied to those on land. If moored for in excess of 183 days, apply for Residencia and pay the taxes - after all, you are using their transport system, roads, pavements, street lighting, sewage, water, police, bombeiros, public parks etc. If you don't want to do that - move on before your period of grace expires.
 
I'm not aware of any ISDMT type taxes here in Sardinia, but I suppose if they are on the EU Statute Book then they may just turn up at some time. I'll ask around but, I think they only go down that route if you become resident and have permission to stay. Like most places, it depends on who you know to avoid getting caught up, not what you know.

I can't beleive that some people on here still profess not to have known about the 183 day rules, they have been around for years. I remember friends of mine being caught up in it as far back as 1986 in Menorca - which is when I first became aware of it. They got the customs to seal thier car in their garrage for 6 months and use thier other car, just swopped them around every 6 months no problem. Bit difficult to do that with a boat though.

I think there is a fee for staying on the bouys/anchorages in the National Park areas, but thats mainly to stop you from damaging the Posidonia Oceanica (sea grass).

May I suggest thaty as live-aboard cruisers, we do just that; cruise a round the place not staying in an EU country for more than 183 days. Otherwise you appear to 'free loading' in somebody elses country, even if you aren't.
 
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Stretching the thread a little.....where is now "safe"?


[/ QUOTE ] I've wondering the very same, but fear that if it becomes common knowledge there will be a mad rush there to get a decent parking space. Then it becomes overcrowded and less attractive - a vicious circle, it seems.
 
I don't entirely agree or disagree with you. For the most part people pay their taxes by paying tourist rates for the marina, they eat in restaurants and for most purposes are very welcome spenders in the economy. The only things that some don't do is to make full provision for healthcare and pay wealth tax. There is a double-taxation treaty between UK and Spain anyway. Probably healthcare is the most obvious area where people are taking more out than they are really entitled to.

My wife and I pay doctors privately as we go and we maintain full BUPA cover in the UK so we don't feel that we are putting upon out host country....mind you, I am not suggesting that we can write our own rules, only that honour is satisfied as we put in rather than take out.
 
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Not everybody can afford full BUPA cover in the UK can they /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]Many more could afford to do so if they chose to do so, than choose to do so.

I've just come back from 16 days in the UK agog at the sheer self-indulgence shown by the British supermarket shopper. Every delicacy known to man, in vast quantities, spread across the shelves....four different varieties of beef cattle in the same supermarket, side by side, two or three different varieties of sheep and pork. Vegetables flown in from the four corners of the earth....nothing is out of season, nothing is too rare, too expensive or too good for the British shopper.

Don't lecture me about what the British consumer can afford to pay....come down from the ivory tower and see what the rest of Europe expects to buy on a daily basis. If Brits want healthcare, then they can well afford to pay for it all they while they can afford to pay for what they are stuffing their bellies with on a daily basis.

There is an adjustment in the pipeline that the average middle class Brit is NOT going to enjoy.
 
[Don't lecture me about what the British consumer can afford to pay]

i wasn't & i don't live in a Ivory Tr either.
You are obviously more financially astute than most of us hence your gold advise.
not everybody buys meat from SM as they mainly sell poor quality tasteless meat. i agree the sell far too many lines but this country is stuck with what they sell as they monopolize the sector, most of the fruit isn't worth buying tastes of nothing & never ripens.so you just sit back enjoy counting the contents of your large sock drawer.
 
It's not the quality of what they eat. Most of them seem quite incapable of appreciating decent food. It's that they spend a fortune on their food expecting imported out of season produce all year round.

Then they whinge about the NHS being NBG. If only they would put as much into their healthcare as they put into their bellies they would be a lot slimmer, more healthy and have no complaints about the (usually excellent) NHS.

Many of these people have been selling their homes by taking out loans (Mortgage Equity Withdrawal) so many have no home left to call their own and they are STILL consuming nearly a third of what the EU imports! It is insanity.

So when you said that most people can't afford full BUPA I thought that I'd like to set a few truths down. Friends? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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