Torqeedo Outboards?

[jordanbasset]

Is it only me that finds the term 'mothership' a bit pretentious when a applied to a sailing yacht?

I deliberately used the term because I’m a motorboater and I didn’t want any animosity from a mainly sailing forum so I used a gender neutral term it was only to obfuscate not to deceive

 

[cpedw]

Energy is measured in Watt hours (Wh)

Anywhere but here and electricity bills, energy is measured in Joules (or ergs or if you're very old foot.pound-force). There are 3600 Joules in one Watt.hour so perhaps kJ (kiloJoules or MJ would be more convenient.

 

[ghostlymoron]

Isn't a joule something like the energy required to raise the temperature of 1cc by 1°C. Very small. You also see kJ on food as a measure of fattening potential.

Anywhere but here and electricity bills, energy is measured in Joules (or ergs or if you're very old foot.pound-force). There are 3600 Joules in one Watt.hour so perhaps kJ (kiloJoules or MJ would be more convenient.

 

[Alan S]

Not really - it's saying that it takes one hour to put 50 watt hours in the battery. You can't put it in any faster but you can take it out a lot faster unfortunately. If you are drawing 200 watts it'll only 15 minutes to empty it (in other words one hours charge will give a certain number of minutes at full throttle but a lot more minutes at half throttle).

50 Watts also says that it takes an hour to put in 50 Wh.

 

[cpedw]

Isn't a joule something like the energy required to raise the temperature of 1cc by 1°C. Very small.

No. A calorie is the energy to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1°C. A Calorie or kilocalorie is 1000 of them, widely used in food and nutrition circles.

Whether it's small or not depends on your perspective/how far away you are .

 

[grumpy_o_g]

50 Watts also says that it takes an hour to put in 50 Wh.

No it doesn't. Call it 48W and 12V - that's 4A. If the battery can only accept 12V and 2A then 50Wh will take 2 hours; if the battery can accept 8A then it's 30 minutes. You can't ignore the maximum charge rate which is the limiting factor. The quicker you can shove electrons in (or take them out if you're a classicist) the better but it's slow at the moment. That's the the whole electric car issue.

 

[Bouba]

I think it’s important that you analyze what your actual use of the tender motor is. The problem most people have is either starting or servicing the carburetor of their outboard. That is because of under use. And after the initial use of a new electric outboard I suspect 99% are still underused just sitting in the lazaret. So don’t get bogged down on how long it takes to charge.
The other point is cost. If I have to predict the future I will say the technology will improve (especially the battery) but the price will always reflect that it’s cutting edge and remain high.

 

[RupertW]

No it doesn't. Call it 48W and 12V - that's 4A. If the battery can only accept 12V and 2A then 50Wh will take 2 hours; if the battery can accept 8A then it's 30 minutes. You can't ignore the maximum charge rate which is the limiting factor. The quicker you can shove electrons in (or take them out if you're a classicist) the better but it's slow at the moment. That's the the whole electric car issue.

Exactly - in fact it takes about 90 Watts power consumption for an hour to put in 50 Watt hours. That’s wildly inefficient but is a lot quicker inverting and using Torqueedo fast mains charger than simply attaching 12v supply (so says the manual but as I’ve never tried the direct attachment that’s why I asked). In this context saying 50W is silly.

 

[Alan S]

Exactly - in fact it takes about 90 Watts power consumption for an hour to put in 50 Watt hours. That’s wildly inefficient but is a lot quicker inverting and using Torqueedo fast mains charger than simply attaching 12v supply (so says the manual but as I’ve never tried the direct attachment that’s why I asked). In this context saying 50W is silly.

Irrespective of the efficiency of inverters and chargers, if you put 50 Wh of charge (energy) into the Torqeedo battery in one hour, the rate of charge (power) is 50W even if it takes 90W from the ship's batteries. Just saying 50Wh per hour is a clumsy way of saying 50W.
Chill.

 

[RupertW]

Irrespective of the efficiency of inverters and chargers, if you put 50 Wh of charge (energy) into the Torqeedo battery in one hour, the rate of charge (power) is 50W even if it takes 90W from the ship's batteries. Just saying 50Wh per hour is a clumsy way of saying 50W.
Chill.

I dont think you understand electricity very well - not only is the amount of power coming out of the domestic battery bank different to 50w, so is the amount of power gong into the Lithiium battery. A simple understanding of hysteresis tells you that the power in is never the same as the power out and then you have to take account of the circuitry in the lithium battery to manage the charge cycle. Simply saying watts to explain the increase in charge held over an hour is mistaking a point in time measurement of power consumption at some point in the circuit for a measure of the rate of charge increase.

Simply resolving the dimensions is unhelpful and means nothing in the context.

 

[nestawayboats]

I think you meant to say per month. Torqeedo say 3.6% per month in optimal storage conditions.

Yes, that is what Torqeedo say you will lose per month of the energy that you left stored in it. Although we don't find they seem to lose as much as that, certainly not at lower states of charge; they come out of the factory at 30% and always seem to be at about 30% whether we open the box as soon as it arrives or three months later.

The 2 to 4% loss per year I was referring to, was of the battery's total capacity to store electricity (not its current state of charge). If it started new with a capacity of 1000Wh then after one year of existence - more or less regardless of how much it's used - its capacity would be somewhere between 980 and 960Wh. After two years somewhere between 960 and 920Wh.

All batteries lose some capacity just by existing. How much capacity they lose is largely dependent on how they're stored, ideally not fully charged in the case of lithium batteries (as covered in earlier post). There is also a charge cycle effect, but most leisure users never use them enough for that to be significant compared to the storage effect.

Ian, Nestaway Boats

 

[Red Panda]

What a great, informative thread, a big thank you to Nestawayboats for their contribution.
At the moment I don't have any outboard, but do have a decent pair of long, sturdy oars. I've long been keen to try an electric outboard, but haven't yet been able to justify it. However, I might be about to move to a swinging mooring, if I do I'll be seriously looking at getting either the new Torqueedo 1103 or the e-Spirit.

Reasons to justify the expense include having an outboard that Mrs. Panda can start by herself, that we can easily lift to/from the dinghy, and the silence and cleanliness of it. To that I'll add the autonomy of being able to recharge it onboard rather than needing to carry (and find somewhere to buy) petrol. But in essence (see what I did there?), I'm hugely in favour of moving to electric motors and I accept that there's a price premium for being an early adopter.

 

[Bouba]

Just a little advice from my experience, when I first changed from petrol to the Torqeedo I had a lot of problems. The Torqeedo kept hitting the beach when going ashore, it under performed and in the raised position it swung violently like a pendulum. But when I checked the specs, I found my transom was too low. After adding 3cm in height to the transom everything handles perfectly and I’m very pleased

 

[nestawayboats]

CHARGING IN GENERAL

With apologies for not replying to the individual posts and trying to avoid technical language, I think this will cover most of it.

12V charging is most efficient in terms of getting energy from your yacht's battery bank to your outboard battery. The Torqeedo battery actually charges at a fixed current of 4 Amps, so if you happen to have your main engine running at the time the charging will be a bit faster because the voltage will be a bit higher (Volts x Amps = Watts). A lot of users find that only charging their outboard battery when the main engine is running is sufficient, for the amount they use the outboard. The Torqeedo battery will "accept" anything between about 11 and 26V, so if you have a 24V system it's twice as quick. The 12V lead is an option at £35 (mains charger is included).

The Epropulsion 12V charging is different in that the adapter does the conversion to the voltage that the battery wants externally, rather than within the battery (Torqeedo). At 12V the charging rate is roughly twice as quick as the Torqeedo. The Epropulsion "12V lead" is a more expensive option at £89 but it's actually quite a sophisticated DC-DC voltage converter/regulator and suitable for direct connection to other sources such as a solar panel too - it will convert almost anything you throw at it to what the battery wants. (Whereas the Torqeedo lead is exactly that, a piece of cable with the right ends on it.)

Mains charging is faster in both cases but if you're converting 12V DC to AC (to power the inverter) and then back to DC (for the charger), there are some losses so it is less efficient in terms of "moving" yacht battery charge to outboard battery. If you're plugged into the marina, or have abundant power on board, or are visiting a pub with an amenable (to you plugging your battery in) landlord, the speed is roughly double that of 12V charging for the Torqeedo (10 hours instead of 20, for the 915Wh battery), and up to 4 times as fast for the Epropulsion (2.5hrs on optional fast mains charger, 5.5hrs on standard mains charger, 10 hours on 12V charger, all for 1018Wh battery).

For those who are more technically minded, yes these are all roundings to nice easy numbers but a reasonable general indication of what to expect (intended to make it easier for those who aren't technically minded!).

Ian, Nestaway Boats

 

[nestawayboats]

Just a little advice from my experience, when I first changed from petrol to the Torqeedo I had a lot of problems. The Torqeedo kept hitting the beach when going ashore, it under performed and in the raised position it swung violently like a pendulum. But when I checked the specs, I found my transom was too low. After adding 3cm in height to the transom everything handles perfectly and I’m very pleased

That is why Epropulsion now offer an XS shaft version... whilst it is in theory more efficient to put the propeller in deeper, clearer water, in practice this is largely outweighed by the inconvenience of having to tilt it up much sooner than you'd expect, when coming in to a beach or slipway. (Or hit it on the bottom, damage the propeller, get it caught in weed, etc.) Almost everything in boating is a compromise!

Both brands offer L and S shaft motors, Epropulsion also offer an XS which suits better most (nearly all) inflatable dinghies up to about 3m long or so.

Ian, Nestaway Boats

 

[Bouba]

That is why Epropulsion now offer an XS shaft version... whilst it is in theory more efficient to put the propeller in deeper, clearer water, in practice this is largely outweighed by the inconvenience of having to tilt it up much sooner than you'd expect, when coming in to a beach or slipway. (Or hit it on the bottom, damage the propeller, get it caught in weed, etc.) Almost everything in boating is a compromise!

Both brands offer L and S shaft motors, Epropulsion also offer an XS which suits better most (nearly all) inflatable dinghies up to about 3m long or so.

Ian, Nestaway Boats

I didn’t want to chance the Epropulsion because at the time I was having trouble with my Chinese made ebike, and there was no price advantage to make the risk worthwhile. But you make such a compelling case that I’m already regretting getting a Torqeedo

 

[Adrian]

Hi Ian,

Great thread, slight thread drift but my Torqueedo lags for a few seconds when first twisting the throttle sometimes catching us out, is this normal.

Cheers
Adrian

 

[nestawayboats]

Hi Ian,

Great thread, slight thread drift but my Torqueedo lags for a few seconds when first twisting the throttle sometimes catching us out, is this normal.

Cheers
Adrian

Adrian - yes a delay of a couple of seconds is "normal" for the 1003. As the delay is not there in Torqeedo's new direct drive 1103 (nor the direct drive only Epropulsions), we believe it to be deliberate, most likely to protect the gearbox (that the 1003 has and the other two don't) from the motor's instantaneous torque.

The real problem until you get used to it is the delay is long enough that you don't think you've put enough power on, so you put a bit more power on, and then it all comes at once...

As I say neither the Epropulsion Spirit nor the new-this-year Torqeedo 1103 have the delay. Engineering out the gearbox has eliminated this problem and nearly all the noise, but the advantage of the 1003's smaller faster spinning motor and reduction gearbox is that it's lighter than the other two.

Ian, Nestaway Boats

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Hi Ian,

Great thread, slight thread drift but my Torqueedo lags for a few seconds when first twisting the throttle sometimes catching us out, is this normal.

Cheers
Adrian

Mine does that too. It's a bit disconcerting...!.

 

[Bouba]

Mine does that too. It's a bit disconcerting...!.

I must say, I haven’t noticed it on my Torqeedo. I next time I use it I will look out for it