Torqeedo Outboards?

[Tim Good]

Going back to the inability of an electric motor to plane, I imagine at some point they're use some clever gearbox and electronics to gauge when the boat suddenly reached plane speed and then change the gearing to reduce torque for prop speed. I mean I only need to give my 3.5hp full juice for 2/3 seconds and then once on the plan I can drop the throttle right back to half or less.

If Torqeedo could achieve this, get a dingy planing and then drop back power to minimise battery usage / increase range.. it'll be a game changer.

For us being able to go 12 kts in a small dingy is really useful and means we can really use out dingy for more than just reaching the shore when we can't be arsed to paddle.

 

[Bouba]

I’ll add this. Having an outboard that can easily come off the dingy and be stored is especially useful here in the South of France. During the summer months access to the beach from the mothership requires rowing as there is often a no propeller zone to protect swimmers. This seems to be much more aggressively policed recently, and rowing with the outboard in the raised position is not acceptable. No propeller doesn’t just mean no propeller in the water!

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

Going back to the inability of an electric motor to plane, I imagine at some point they're use some clever gearbox and electronics to gauge when the boat suddenly reached plane speed and then change the gearing to reduce torque for prop speed. I mean I only need to give my 3.5hp full juice for 2/3 seconds and then once on the plan I can drop the throttle right back to half or less.

If Torqeedo could achieve this, get a dingy planing and then drop back power to minimise battery usage / increase range.. it'll be a game changer.

For us being able to go 12 kts in a small dingy is really useful and means we can really use out dingy for more than just reaching the shore when we can't be arsed to paddle.

My little lithium battery electric scooter has 2 gears ... up to 18 kph and 18 to 30 odd kph ... could be done with an outboard possibly. I have a 1003C and am very happy with it on a 2.8 rib.

 

[Tim Good]

My little lithium battery electric scooter has 2 gears ... up to 18 kph and 18 to 30 odd kph ... could be done with an outboard possibly. I have a 1003C and am very happy with it on a 2.8 rib.

Does it ever feel like its close to planing or nowhere near?

 

[Bouba]

Weight is certainly one of the most important reasons people buy these motors yes. I'd say ease of use (no starter cord, choke or carburetor gumming to deal with), and ease of storage (nothing to leak out - hang it upside down if you want) are also right up there. The quietness and smoothness are largely seen as massive bonuses but not necessarily decisive. In some markets, not so much the UK (yet) legislation is driving it too; many inland waterway authorities have banned or are considering banning combustion engines altogether (eg German/Swiss lakes).

One has to assume the new (direct drive) Torqeedo 1103 was developed at least in part to respond to the competition from the (direct drive) Epropulsion. The 1103 is billed by Torqeedo as their new flagship portable model, and as they put it "The new Travel 1103 C adds 10% more power, increased durability and is much quieter, while weighing just 2.4 kg more."

To clarify on weight then:
- the Torqeedo 1003 (oldest design, small fast spinning motor with reduction gearbox) shaft/motor weight (with battery removed) is 8.9kg
- the Epropulsion Spirit (direct drive) shaft/motor is 10.8kg
- the new Torqeedo 1103 (direct drive) shaft/motor is 11.5kg

In terms of "pass up and down from the big boat weight" - because you can clip the battery on when the motor is clamped to the dinghy's transom - all three are lighter than even the lightest 4-strokes; Honda & Suzuki's 2.5hp motors are quoted at around 13kg. But I think that 13kg is a dry weight, so at the very least you need to add sump oil to that - and most people I know choose to put fuel in the tank while the motor's on the (steadier platform) big boat - so perhaps more like 15kg. Two-strokes were lighter yes but cannot be purchased new (since 2006) and I don't recall any of them being as light as 11.5kg. (Maybe the now-ancient Yamaha 2, empty of fuel - I'm sure someone here will know.)

The Epropulsion batteries are heavier than the Torqeedo ones - not least because the capacity is 10% more than the largest Torqeedo option - but still lighter than the motor part, and much easier (in terms of shape) to handle. The weight disadvantage of the Eprop battery is arguably outweighed by the fact it floats if dropped... (the Torqeedo ones don't!).

Battery weights:
- Torqeedo 320Wh (rarely purchased nowadays, still theoretically available) 4.2kg
- Torqeedo 532Wh (standard with 1003) 5.3kg
- Torqeedo 916Wh (standard with 1003C and 1103C) 6kg
- Epropulsion 1018Wh (only option) 7.8kg

As an aside the three Torqeedo batteries all come in the same size casing. When it was launched, the 320Wh capacity battery seemed like a massive step forward... 10 years later they are getting nearly three times as much capacity (ie 916Wh) into the same volume. That increase in battery capacity seems to be what's made this type of motor really become "mainstream" - for many users 916Wh (or typically about 2hrs at about 4 to 4.5 knots, 1hr at 5.5 knots) represent's several days use.

The new direct drive Torqeedo 1103 is due to arrive in UK within days now. We will publish more comparative information as soon as we can put them all (Torqeedo 1003 & 1103, Epropulsion Spirit) next to each other.

Ian Thomson
Nestaway Boats

Ian, do any of your customers worry about the battery or other parts of the Torqeedo being stolen if they leave their dingy anywhere? And if yes, what do you advise them?

 

[Tim Good]

Ian, do any of your customers worry about the battery or other parts of the Torqeedo being stolen if they leave their dingy anywhere? And if yes, what do you advise them?

I imagine there isnt enough of a market for second hand torqeedo batteries yet to be a major risk but if I get one I'll be either hiding my battery in a bush or somehow locking it.... Ian can it be locked?

 

[RupertW]

I imagine there isnt enough of a market for second hand torqeedo batteries yet to be a major risk but if I get one I'll be either hiding my battery in a bush or somehow locking it.... Ian can it be locked?

We’ve always locked our Torqueedo like any other outboard so by a padlock on the toggles but also have always put a cycle lock wire through the integral battery handle and attached that to the padlock too. So the tiller/throttle could be stolen still but we don’t bother taking it off and putting it into a bag (it’s not at all heavy or large) unless for some reason we are nervous about the town - and that is very rare.

 

[nestawayboats]

Regards locking either Torqeedo or Epropulsion motors, yes a padlock through the handles or - better, as the handles are only plastic - an "outboard tube lock" (various suppliers) that slides over the handles to stop them being undone or snapped off. Then a bike cable through the battery and if you're feeling paranoid (in the case of the Torqeedo) take the tiller (which is removable on the Torqeedo, foldable on the Epropulsion) with you. If you take those precautions, harsh as it may sound you've made it easier - for the potential thief - to nick somebody else's motor.

Some customers do take their batteries ashore, but this is usually more about grabbing the opportunity to "refuel" (their battery as well as themselves!) in the pub, than security. Torqeedo mains charger is 90W (so you get about 10% charge of the 916Wh battery per hour on the mains); Epropulsion standard mains charger is 175W (about 17% per hour of their 1018Wh battery); and with the Epropulsion there is a 400W fast charger option (2.5hrs to full charge from flat). Both manufacturers offer battery bags as options, with rucksack-style straps in the case of the Eprop.

Lastly I'd point that certainly when I was last living in the Caribbean - nearly 20 years ago, unfortunately - there was a disincentive to making the outboard too difficult to steal, because "they" did usually only want the outboard. (Outboard motors being relatively portable and valuable per kilo, with a ready market, compared to boats.) We heard of a few dinghies where the outboard was too secure so the thieves had either hacked the transom out of the boat altogether (in the case of inflatable floor boats), or sawn out the relevant bit of the transom on RIBs.

Ian, Nestaway Boats

 

[pcatterall]

Our Seagull might be getting a little long in the tooth and we often discuss what we would replace it with!
Our Avon Redstart is an exact fit in its ideal storage location so we want to keep that.
We don't expect to be planning!
I hear that Torqueedos' are very expensive but some new outboards also seem pricey.
I guess that the max size we would want would be 2.5hp so can anyone offer an aprox cost comparison new outboard against new Torqueedo and the relative life expectations?

 

[RupertW]

Our Seagull might be getting a little long in the tooth and we often discuss what we would replace it with!
Our Avon Redstart is an exact fit in its ideal storage location so we want to keep that.
We don't expect to be planning!
I hear that Torqueedos' are very expensive but some new outboards also seem pricey.
I guess that the max size we would want would be 2.5hp so can anyone offer an aprox cost comparison new outboard against new Torqueedo and the relative life expectations?

If cost is even in your calculations then I would forget about Torqueedo for another few years. For us it was a complete indulgence and delivered all the advantages we hoped for and a couple more.

 

[Bouba]

If cost is even in your calculations then I would forget about Torqueedo for another few years. For us it was a complete indulgence and delivered all the advantages we hoped for and a couple more.

I agree with Rupert. You cannot make a direct comparison, you have to not want a petrol outboard. Either because it’s too heavy, too noisy, smelly, you don’t want petrol onboard, too difficult to start etc. But if you want cheap to buy, more power, more speed unlimited range then petrol is still the way to go. In my case it was to get petrol off my boat.

 

[Bouba]

Regards locking either Torqeedo or Epropulsion motors, yes a padlock through the handles or - better, as the handles are only plastic - an "outboard tube lock" (various suppliers) that slides over the handles to stop them being undone or snapped off. Then a bike cable through the battery and if you're feeling paranoid (in the case of the Torqeedo) take the tiller (which is removable on the Torqeedo, foldable on the Epropulsion) with you. If you take those precautions, harsh as it may sound you've made it easier - for the potential thief - to nick somebody else's motor.

Some customers do take their batteries ashore, but this is usually more about grabbing the opportunity to "refuel" (their battery as well as themselves!) in the pub, than security. Torqeedo mains charger is 90W (so you get about 10% charge of the 916Wh battery per hour on the mains); Epropulsion standard mains charger is 175W (about 17% per hour of their 1018Wh battery); and with the Epropulsion there is a 400W fast charger option (2.5hrs to full charge from flat). Both manufacturers offer battery bags as options, with rucksack-style straps in the case of the Eprop.

Lastly I'd point that certainly when I was last living in the Caribbean - nearly 20 years ago, unfortunately - there was a disincentive to making the outboard too difficult to steal, because "they" did usually only want the outboard. (Outboard motors being relatively portable and valuable per kilo, with a ready market, compared to boats.) We heard of a few dinghies where the outboard was too secure so the thieves had either hacked the transom out of the boat altogether (in the case of inflatable floor boats), or sawn out the relevant bit of the transom on RIBs.

Ian, Nestaway Boats

Thanks Ian. Yes, a lock is to keep an honest man honest not keep a thief out. I’ve had a 150 hp outboard stolen so even weight is not an issue to a determined thief. And I’ve had two and half thousand worth of damage to my sliding glass door so someone could steal a bottle of water from my boat. I guess I was hoping there was a high tech Torqeedo solution to the problem

 

[nestawayboats]

Our Seagull might be getting a little long in the tooth and we often discuss what we would replace it with!
Our Avon Redstart is an exact fit in its ideal storage location so we want to keep that.
We don't expect to be planning!
I hear that Torqueedos' are very expensive but some new outboards also seem pricey.
I guess that the max size we would want would be 2.5hp so can anyone offer an aprox cost comparison new outboard against new Torqueedo and the relative life expectations?

If you shop around you can pick up a Suzuki 2.5hp outboard new for about £525, or a Torqeedo 503 (sold as "1.5hp equivalent") for around £1125 - including from us should you wish (we sell the Suzukis too!). So if you want an electric outboard with an integrated lithium battery (ie the type discussed here), it's going to be double the money, or triple the money if you want more power and/or larger battery. In terms of speed and shoving power a 503 will do pretty much everything that a 2.5hp petrol will on an Avon Redstart, because as you say there is no chance of it planing. There are many variables but my reasonably informed guesstimate is that you'd get about 4 knots flat out and 3 knots at half power, using a 503 on a Redstart.

You could go electric for much less than that if you bought a 12V trolling motor and don't mind having a car battery in your dinghy, but that's a lot slower and less convenient. With apologies to whoever I'm paraphrasing, trolling motors are basically designed so that you can push your fishing boat along slightly slower than a lazy fish, rather than for propulsion. (The Torqeedo and Epropulsion motors were designed mainly for propulsion, but if you want to go slowly to catch fish they can do that too.)

As one of the other posts here states, if upfront cost is a major consideration then this type of electric motor cannot compete. But if you're going to pay an authorised dealer to service your petrol outboard - which is usually a term of the warranty - then over 5-6 years the lifetime cost starts to even out. (Based on it costing you £100 a year to have a small petrol motor serviced and getting it to/from the dealer.) That's before any additional maintenance costs such as cleaning out the carburettor because the fuel's evaporated out and left what looks like varnish behind (a very common problem, and not covered by warranty), if you don't do that yourself. The two brands of electric outboard we're discussing here don't require any servicing (other than DIY jobs like greasing the clamp screws) for the first 8 years. And in our experience very rarely (far less frequently than petrol outboards) go wrong.

Whether it's worth the extra upfront cost depends on what value you attribute to the many positives for electric, as listed by us and others in this thread.

Ian Thomson
Nestaway Boats

 

[Elessar]

What a great thread with balanced, informative, non evangelistic opinions based on real experience and knowledge.
So different from the “I bought and X and you must be an idiot if you don’t” or worse “my mate bought an X and.....” type thread that appears too often.
Sorry I’ve nothing at all to contribute just wanted to say I enjoyed reading it and learned something!

 

[Boathook]

What a great thread with balanced, informative, non evangelistic opinions based on real experience and knowledge.
So different from the “I bought and X and you must be an idiot if you don’t” or worse “my mate bought an X and.....” type thread that appears too often.
Sorry I’ve nothing at all to contribute just wanted to say I enjoyed reading it and learned something!

Not the only one.
I'm getting tempted towards these but it is the range and charging that worries me.

 

[Bouba]

Not the only one.
I'm getting tempted towards these but it is the range and charging that worries me.

It’s important to have a charging system in place otherwise you get range anxiety and go everywhere at slowest possible speed always watching your battery life (range anxiety is also common with electric cars). But once you know you can always recharge then life becomes easier and you can have fun with it

 

[nestawayboats]

Not the only one.
I'm getting tempted towards these but it is the range and charging that worries me.

RANGE. With the Torqeedo 916Wh battery (largest one they do), of course it depends on the dinghy, load, conditions etc, but as a rough guide you should get 1hr at about 5.5 knots (flat out), 2hrs at 4.5 knots, 4hrs at 3 knots. And so on - range/run time increasing with decrease in speed - but we've never been patient enough to exhaust a battery at lower speeds! Most yacht-tender-type customers seem to buy them reasonably convinced they'll get a day's normal use out of the battery, and then find they get a weekend or more in reality. We have several customers using them on much larger and heavier dayboats (Drascombe etc) and they don't actually get much less range (heavier, but easily-driven displacement hulls). The Epropulsion battery has about 10% more capacity than the largest Torqeedo option.

CHARGING. Assuming your usage means you do actually get 2 to 3 days out of one full charge, charging may be less of an issue than it first seems. Both makes of battery can be charged from mains (chargers supplied) or 12V DC on board (optional chargers). But your yacht might not have a large battery bank, so then you'll probably only want to charge the outboard battery when you're running the yacht's engine. Maybe attached to a circuit with a voltage-sensing relay (not standard but we know a man who has done it) so it can only charge when the yacht engine is running. The numbers still look OK for a lot of users. Take as an example the Epropulsion 1018Wh battery and its 12V 120W charger, assume an average use of 400Wh per day on the outboard, and 2hrs charging from the yacht engine (in/outof harbour etc). 2hrs at 120W should be 240W but as I want to make the maths easy let's be pessimistic and say 200Wh charge input per day. Then we get:
- Day 1 1000Wh (fully charged) - 400Wh usage, +200Wh input, end of day you still have 80% or 800Wh;
- Day 2 800-400, +200, end of day 600Wh;
- Day 3 600-400, +200, end of day 400Wh;
- Day 4 400-400, +200, end of day 200Wh.

Under these conditions it's not until Day 5 you have to worry about your outboard's battery charge. Possibly one day in five you may visit a marina or pub, where you can plug into the mains. But yes if you spend more than a couple of days at anchor using the outboard and not visiting the pub, now you're going to have to find another way to charge your outboard battery. On my yacht we probably couldn't live more than two days at anchor without running the main engine anyway, but I know some can.

There are other options like solar panels and if you go for a standalone setup (a panel just for the outboard battery) we find (in the UK) realistically a 100W panel will put about 400 to 500Wh back into a battery per day, if the weather is reasonable. However if you have solar panels on the yacht already it may be better to just charge the outboard battery from the yacht's 12V system, and/or add one more panel to the yacht's system.

It requires different thinking to the admittedly-very-easy 5 litre jerry can of petrol, but most customers find their range (and charging) anxiety is unfounded. You could also double all those range/run time/independence from mains numbers by taking a second battery, but that of course is not a cheap option...

Ian Thomson
Nestaway Boats

 

[Bouba]

RANGE. With the Torqeedo 916Wh battery (largest one they do), of course it depends on the dinghy, load, conditions etc, but as a rough guide you should get 1hr at about 5.5 knots (flat out), 2hrs at 4.5 knots, 4hrs at 3 knots. And so on - range/run time increasing with decrease in speed - but we've never been patient enough to exhaust a battery at lower speeds! Most yacht-tender-type customers seem to buy them reasonably convinced they'll get a day's normal use out of the battery, and then find they get a weekend or more in reality. We have several customers using them on much larger and heavier dayboats (Drascombe etc) and they don't actually get much less range (heavier, but easily-driven displacement hulls). The Epropulsion battery has about 10% more capacity than the largest Torqeedo option.

CHARGING. Assuming your usage means you do actually get 2 to 3 days out of one full charge, charging may be less of an issue than it first seems. Both makes of battery can be charged from mains (chargers supplied) or 12V DC on board (optional chargers). But your yacht might not have a large battery bank, so then you'll probably only want to charge the outboard battery when you're running the yacht's engine. Maybe attached to a circuit with a voltage-sensing relay (not standard but we know a man who has done it) so it can only charge when the yacht engine is running. The numbers still look OK for a lot of users. Take as an example the Epropulsion 1018Wh battery and its 12V 120W charger, assume an average use of 400Wh per day on the outboard, and 2hrs charging from the yacht engine (in/outof harbour etc). 2hrs at 120W should be 240W but as I want to make the maths easy let's be pessimistic and say 200Wh charge input per day. Then we get:
- Day 1 1000Wh (fully charged) - 400Wh usage, +200Wh input, end of day you still have 80% or 800Wh;
- Day 2 800-400, +200, end of day 600Wh;
- Day 3 600-400, +200, end of day 400Wh;
- Day 4 400-400, +200, end of day 200Wh.

Under these conditions it's not until Day 5 you have to worry about your outboard's battery charge. Possibly one day in five you may visit a marina or pub, where you can plug into the mains. But yes if you spend more than a couple of days at anchor using the outboard and not visiting the pub, now you're going to have to find another way to charge your outboard battery. On my yacht we probably couldn't live more than two days at anchor without running the main engine anyway, but I know some can.

There are other options like solar panels and if you go for a standalone setup (a panel just for the outboard battery) we find (in the UK) realistically a 100W panel will put about 400 to 500Wh back into a battery per day, if the weather is reasonable. However if you have solar panels on the yacht already it may be better to just charge the outboard battery from the yacht's 12V system, and/or add one more panel to the yacht's system.

It requires different thinking to the admittedly-very-easy 5 litre jerry can of petrol, but most customers find their range (and charging) anxiety is unfounded. You could also double all those range/run time/independence from mains numbers by taking a second battery, but that of course is not a cheap option...

Ian Thomson
Nestaway Boats

Ian, is it ok to partially charge a Torqeedo battery on a regular basis?

 

[maby]

I like the idea of the Torqueedo, but it would have to change significantly before I would consider one. I'm not particularly interested in speed, but I would need a moderate increase in range, a significant reduction in price and a significant reduction in charging time. If it could give me close to 20 miles range with recharge in a couple of hours and all at a price premium of no more than 50% over a 2.5hp outboard from a decent manufacturer, then it would be a definite option, but without those improvements, it is just impossible to justify.

 

[dunedin]

Ian, brilliant posts, some of the most informative seen on here. Big credit to nestawayboats. :encouragement:

PS Hadn’t been aware of ePropulsion before, but now definitely on my “watch” radar - though unless existing 2 stroke dies for some reason, likely to wait for price point complete below £1,000