Toilet Pipe Loop

[Caladh]

I want to run this by you all. The pics show a recent install of toilet hose to seacock. There is no U loop and what you see is pretty much below the waterline. The pipe goes from the loo to the seacock on the r/h side of pic1 and has a small loop back towards the toilet in the r/h picture. What are the implications please ?

 

[VicS]

I want to run this by you all. The pics show a recent install of toilet hose to seacock. There is no U loop and what you see is pretty much below the waterline. The pipe goes from the loo to the seacock on the r/h side of pic1 and has a small loop back towards the toilet in the r/h picture. What are the implications please ?

If there is no vented loop above the water line and you leave the seacock open or dont shut it properly water will probably syphon in, fill and over flow the loo, and flood the boat.

Happened during the night to someone I know. One of the children didn't shut the seacock properly one evening. Water was just below the level of the bunks by morning.

 

[prv]

If there is no vented loop above the water line and you leave the seacock open or dont shut it properly water will probably syphon in, fill and over flow the loo, and flood the boat.

If it's all below the waterline as described, then it's not even a matter of siphoning. He's essentially got a direct pipe from the sea into his boat, hindered only by the rather feeble and unreliable rubber valves in the toilet.

Implications are the same, though - needs a vented loop well above the waterline, and is at risk of sinking until that's done. Keep the seacock closed whenever not in use (and potentially check yourself after any untrained use) until it can be fixed.

Pete

 

[VicS]

And there ought to be a vented loop in the discharge pipework too although the pump valves/ joker valve will be more of a help in stopping inflow

 

[prv]

And there ought to be a vented loop in the discharge pipework too although the pump valves/ joker valve will be more of a help in stopping inflow

Ah - it was the discharge plumbing I was talking about above, since we can't see the inlet side and the OP didn't describe it.

It's probably just as bad though, and as you say, the pump valves are more use on the discharge side than the inlet where they're lined up to pass water into the boat.

Pete

 

[RupertW]

Yes, the joker valve will protect you completely until eventually it doesn't, whether because it's got an object stuck in it or perished or just gathered scale unevenly.

We always have a head of waste (loop up to holding tank) of about 1.5m above the joker valve and find that even when it does go it does it fairly gradually (and disgustingly of course) as the bowl very slowly fills up. But this happens about once a season and then the valve gets replaced if cleaning doesn't immediately work.

 

[VicS]

Ah - it was the discharge plumbing I was talking about above, since we can't see the inlet side and the OP didn't describe it.

It's probably just as bad though, and as you say, the pump valves are more use on the discharge side than the inlet where they're lined up to pass water into the boat.

Pete

I was confused by the pictures!

Start again:

If the toilet rim is not well above the heeled waterline both inlet and outlet should have vented loops above the water line.

The instructions for installing a Jabsco toilet illustrate what is required in this respect ... noting that on the inlet it is the hose between pump and toilet that requires the loop, not the hose between seacock and pump.


https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=768

 

[prv]

As well as the toilet, the sink drain looks a bit dodgy. Two bits of hose slipped inside each other and jubilee-clipped together, and a T-piece with nothing on the side arm (presumably the larger clear hose was meant to go there). That will flood straight into the locker when the boat heels.

Pete

 

[RupertW]

I was confused by the pictures!

Start again:

If the toilet rim is not well above the heeled waterline both inlet and outlet should have vented loops above the water line.

The instructions for installing a Jabsco toilet illustrate what is required in this respect ... noting that on the inlet it is the hose between pump and toilet that requires the loop, not the hose between seacock and pump.


https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=768

Well, I've never seen the inlet pipe vented like that and up in a loop - Jabsco themselves supply the pump directly fitted to the bowl pretty much horizontally.

 

[Caladh]

As I thought and thanks for the feedback. I will update you all on the matter, later in the week when the job has been completed satisfactorily.........

 

[RichardS]

Well, I've never seen the inlet pipe vented like that and up in a loop - Jabsco themselves supply the pump directly fitted to the bowl pretty much horizontally.

Although they do, indeed, supply that connection pipe, I'm sure that they also say that the pipe should only be used if the rim of the bowl is above sea level.

Richard

 

[RupertW]

Although they do, indeed, supply that connection pipe, I'm sure that they also say that the pipe should only be used if the rim of the bowl is above sea level.

Richard

Oops - my boats have been mostly living below the waterline rather than above like yours. As I've never had a problem even when heavily heeled I need to think about the inconvenience and unsightliness versus the risk. I can't see how a siphon can be created through the valves but will have another look - if it's relying on the twist and lock then I'm effectively relying on never having a careless guest.

 

[john_q]

Well, I've never seen the inlet pipe vented like that and up in a loop - Jabsco themselves supply the pump directly fitted to the bowl pretty much horizontally.

Ir is not a Jabsco, it a Raritan toilet. Probably a PHII

Have a look at the owners manual here http://www.raritaneng.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/L04v1215PHIIPHEIIOM.pdf and see page 5 for plumbing instructions

 

[Hoolie]

Although they do, indeed, supply that connection pipe, I'm sure that they also say that the pipe should only be used if the rim of the bowl is above sea level.

I'm sure that's right as they supply a vent for an elevated loop. But the problem is it's not always practical to fit a vented loop like that. On our boat it would be pretty well impossible. The toilet rim is just above the water line and we have had problems with strong winds and the valve being left in the wrong position. The only solution is to be careful with the valve and close the seacocks when under way.

 

[GrahamM376]

Although, as Rupert says, a twist and lock toilet is probably your best safeguard as the twist and lock mechanism seems reasonably robust and probably more secure than the small spring loaded flap valves in the pump head. However, as Rupert also says, even the twist and lock won't help if a guest forgets to engage it. Richard

None of our boats (4) have had vented loops (except for the air bleed hole in a Lavac) and all had heads below the waterline. They all, including current, have loops well above waterline. Even with twist and lock, they have flap valves in the head, the "lock" just being a slight extension to the operating spindle to hold the bottom valve closed. One of our twist & lock pumps will slowly syphon inlet water if the lever is left in the flush position but the other doesn't. I guess it's time for a service kit.

 

[RichardS]

None of our boats (4) have had vented loops (except for the air bleed hole in a Lavac) and all had heads below the waterline. They all, including current, have loops well above waterline. Even with twist and lock, they have flap valves in the head, the "lock" just being a slight extension to the operating spindle to hold the bottom valve closed. One of our twist & lock pumps will slowly syphon inlet water if the lever is left in the flush position but the other doesn't. I guess it's time for a service kit.

Yes .... that's true. The T & L isn't going to prevent seawater coming in past the pump flap valves. I've taken the vented loops off my toilets as they are above sea level and we don't heel and I'm conscious that the T & L units I installed at the same time are better at preventing back-flow filling but that's a different thing. Doh!

Richard

 

[langstonelayabout]

Interestingly I've changed the heads on my last 2 boats:

Jeanneau came with an non-T&L head plumbed straight to the seacocks. My surveyor said the exit pipe should have a vent in it. So did the instructions from Jabsco on the new T&L head. Fitted as per the instructions. No comments from the buyer's surveyor.

Catalina came with a Jabsco non-T&L head plumbed into a holding tank. I replaced the head and reused the existing plumbing which included a vent in the inlet pipe between pump & bowl, in accordance with Jabsco's instructions. When sold, the buyer's surveyor pronounced gloom, doom and despondency on the installation (one of 12 mistakes in the survey).

I'm sure we have a surveyor or two posting here. Is there a 'best practice' taught in surveyor training, should we no longer obey the manufacturer's recommendations for installation or is there a secret society involved to which most of us are unaware? I'd really appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Stemar]

My heads are well above the level water line though not the heeled one on starboard tack, and I had a loop that went close to the the underside of the side deck. All was fine for years until a gust of wind combined with a badly timed wave rolled me gunwales under. It was a few minutes before I realised that the bog was overflowing and I had several inches of water below. :disgust:

 

[Caladh]

As I thought and thanks for the feedback. I will update you all on the matter, later in the week when the job has been completed satisfactorily.........

Well to summarize it was as I'd said in the initial post. I pointed out the "issue" and initially the guy said "I can't see why or how the boat will sink". when I said that if my surveyor were to look at it he would probably start crying his tone changed and said he would re-do the pipework which he did satisfactorily. What annoys me is the fact that the guy advertises his work to included all aspects of boat work including holding tanks and sanitation. I had the basic knowledge to see something was wrong others may nor be so lucky, but I guess this would apply to most "boat work" where it is not regulated and anyone can setup a business.

 

[webcraft]

When I fitted new heads to our Vega fourteen years ago I raised the heads floor slightly and reduced the length of the outlet pipe to two inches and installed a Jabsco T&L. Seacocks are shut when at sea in lively conditions, otherwise left open. No problems, ever, with back-siphoning. And no problems with heads smells either!

- W