To Snape or Not

Re: Snape Withiers?

Plum said:
A great idea. Even though I would like to see a GPS track shared, I agree that the first priority would be the withies. In addition to online donation maybe also a method of charging £10 per night stay at the quay having used the withies to get there. What we need is someone to take the lead and organise and someone to create a website for the initiative. Any volunteers????

Colin. Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk
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I am following this thread btw but have to agree that nothing much can be done about this this year. Things cannot happen in a hurry around these parts.
I am not volunteering for anything at the moment as this time of the year is a little hectic juggling my work (musicians) and play (boat and weather).
I am very much a local person and have actually lived and worked at the Maltings for a great deal of time. I am on the local council and represent them on the Alde and Ore Association. However this doesn't mean I am qualified or knowledgeable in the placing of withies. They have to be ordered, cut and gathered, marked and placed. Many get damaged by boats and weather, top marks blow away, etc.
In time I will contact one or two relevant persons and discuss the situation for next springtime.
It is all very well having a theory but the practical side of things takes time and gentle persuasion + some folding stuff!
Bear with me or go ahead and report back.
In the meantime consider the loaded barges that sailed up there and the deep sea cruisers that unloaded on the quayside up until the mid-eighties. Perhaps they had more time in the olden days?
 
Re: Snape Withiers?

Thanks for the support.

Just as a reminder, I'm not local now but I grew up at Theberton and still regard the Alde as my "home" river. Hopefully that will count for something! I have decided to make the running so that the project gets going quickly. I will pay all the costs this time. My aim is to get the withies in position ready for the 2016 season.

I am ordering the flags tomorrow - natural cotton, plain white, and my Admiral will dye them red and green. I think it is important to use biodegradable materials which is why I went for cotton rather than PVC. The flags are small, only 200mm long x 190mm high but they don't need to be large to be visible and if they are too large they will catch the wind and pull the withies down.

I have found a coppicer in Suffolk who can supply beanpoles 15 feet long and I am investigating whether hazel, willow, alder or chestnut is the best wood. I'm pretty sure that the withies ought to be cut now while they are full of sap - if they are cut in the winter when the sap has fallen I think they will rot quicker. I have some ideas on how to attach the flags to the withies but some experimentation will be needed. The easiest way would be to use plastic ties but as I said biodegradability is important to me. One way or another, the withies will arrive with flags attached and pointy ends ready to be stuck into the mud.

I have had a look at my plotter and there are positions for 400 withies! But then the channel would look like it had a fence along it. I have decided to supply 120 withies this time round, 60 PHM and 60 SHM. I am buying 160 flags to give some spares; but probably only 120 poles.

I will need help to get them in but that is the fun bit. Should be a really good weekend, lots of boating, something to show for it at the end, and doubtless a few muddy faces to snigger at.

Now, a note of caution. I am not asking for anyone's permission to do this and in order to make it happen quickly it needs to be be done quietly and without ruffling any feathers, which means it's got to be stand-alone. If we start trying to combine it with a scheme for charging for mooring at Snape or anything else I fear the whole thing will become bogged down in meetings and at some point it will get stuck in the mud, like a visiting yacht in the Troublesome Reaches, while "funding" is obtained and consultants are employed to tell us why it cannot be done at all. I don't think anyone is going to be criticised for replacing withies which have been there for literally hundreds of years so I think we will be OK, but I really don't want to involve a lot of other organisations unless they are full of enthusiasm and want to say nice friendly encouraging things.

So that's it really. Do you want to be a Snape Withier next Spring?

If you want to know who I am send me a PM. Seashoreman already knows.
 
Re: Snape Withiers?

TwoHooter said:
Thanks for the support.

Just as a reminder, I'm not local now but I grew up at Theberton and still regard the Alde as my "home" river. Hopefully that will count for something! I have decided to make the running so that the project gets going quickly. I will pay all the costs this time. My aim is to get the withies in position ready for the 2016 season.

I am ordering the flags tomorrow - natural cotton, plain white, and my Admiral will dye them red and green. I think it is important to use biodegradable materials which is why I went for cotton rather than PVC. The flags are small, only 200mm long x 190mm high but they don't need to be large to be visible and if they are too large they will catch the wind and pull the withies down.

I have found a coppicer in Suffolk who can supply beanpoles 15 feet long and I am investigating whether hazel, willow, alder or chestnut is the best wood. I'm pretty sure that the withies ought to be cut now while they are full of sap - if they are cut in the winter when the sap has fallen I think they will rot quicker. I have some ideas on how to attach the flags to the withies but some experimentation will be needed. The easiest way would be to use plastic ties but as I said biodegradability is important to me. One way or another, the withies will arrive with flags attached and pointy ends ready to be stuck into the mud.

I have had a look at my plotter and there are positions for 400 withies! But then the channel would look like it had a fence along it. I have decided to supply 120 withies this time round, 60 PHM and 60 SHM. I am buying 160 flags to give some spares; but probably only 120 poles.

I will need help to get them in but that is the fun bit. Should be a really good weekend, lots of boating, something to show for it at the end, and doubtless a few muddy faces to snigger at.

Now, a note of caution. I am not asking for anyone's permission to do this and in order to make it happen quickly it needs to be be done quietly and without ruffling any feathers, which means it's got to be stand-alone. If we start trying to combine it with a scheme for charging for mooring at Snape or anything else I fear the whole thing will become bogged down in meetings and at some point it will get stuck in the mud, like a visiting yacht in the Troublesome Reaches, while "funding" is obtained and consultants are employed to tell us why it cannot be done at all. I don't think anyone is going to be criticised for replacing withies which have been there for literally hundreds of years so I think we will be OK, but I really don't want to involve a lot of other organisations unless they are full of enthusiasm and want to say nice friendly encouraging things.

So that's it really. Do you want to be a Snape Withier next Spring?

If you want to know who I am send me a PM. Seashoreman already knows.
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TwoHooter. Many thanks to you for your initiative. Please keep all informed and I am sure that via these Forums we will be able to raise funds for annual maintenance of your withies.

Best regards.

Colin. Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk
 
Re: Snape Withiers?

Thanks Plum for your encouragement.

TwoHooter said:
Now, a note of caution. I am not asking for anyone's permission to do this and in order to make it happen quickly it needs to be be done quietly and without ruffling any feathers....
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That statement could have been worded a bit better. I can't edit my original post so here's the wording I wish I'd used in the first place: 'I haven't asked for anyone's permission to do this. If anyone objects to my proposal please would they contact me and I hope we can work out an acceptable arrangement'.

As I understand it the right to navigate tidal waters in England and Wales is undisputed (see Rivers of Britain: Estuaries, etc.' by Stuart Fisher). However I don't know whether that right extends to the placing of markers to assist navigation. My view is that the withies marking the channel of the Upper Alde have been in situ for hundreds of years and all I propose to do is replace them with new ones - no more than that. So I really do hope I am not ruffling any feathers. We shall see.

Meanwhile I have ordered 160 cotton flags. I am now trying to find out how long the withies need to be.
 
Re: Snape Withiers?

TwoHooter said:
Thanks Plum for your encouragement.



That statement could have been worded a bit better. I can't edit my original post so here's the wording I wish I'd used in the first place: 'I haven't asked for anyone's permission to do this. If anyone objects to my proposal please would they contact me and I hope we can work out an acceptable arrangement'.

As I understand it the right to navigate tidal waters in England and Wales is undisputed (see Rivers of Britain: Estuaries, etc.' by Stuart Fisher). However I don't know whether that right extends to the placing of markers to assist navigation. My view is that the withies marking the channel of the Upper Alde have been in situ for hundreds of years and all I propose to do is replace them with new ones - no more than that. So I really do hope I am not ruffling any feathers. We shall see.

Meanwhile I have ordered 160 cotton flags. I am now trying to find out how long the withies need to be.
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Attached is a photo taken on Snape Maltings quay last summer. The soon-to-be-used withies were lying along the quayside near a visiting Dutch Ovni, which from memory was around 32ft. My guess is that the withies were around 20ft, a good part of their length needs to be in the mud...will try to find out from Des (Cygnet) who exactly put these in.

Snape Withies IMG_0245.jpg
 
Re: Snape Withiers?

Jan Harber said:
Attached is a photo taken on Snape Maltings quay last summer. The soon-to-be-used withies were lying along the quayside near a visiting Dutch Ovni, which from memory was around 32ft. My guess is that the withies were around 20ft, a good part of their length needs to be in the mud...will try to find out from Des (Cygnet) who exactly put these in.
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Brilliant! That's a big help - I look forward to hearing what Des knows about this.

The flags have arrived. They are plain white 100% cotton bunting in two strings, 80+ on each string. They are very well made with hems all round and the rear hem which forms the bunting tape is hollow so after I have died the bunting and cut it into individual flags I will be able to push wire down the back of each flag and use this to tie the flags to the withies.
20150812_105510_zpsbvq03ruo.jpg
 
TwoHooter said:
Nothing if you know what they mean. Not everyone does.
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As mentioned before I do not have time at the moment to become too involved in this project. Traditionally (over last 35 years) the withies have been marked with green flags and red painted 5 litre plastic containers. The reasoning being that you are looking for shapes as opposed to colours, which can be impossible at distance/time of day/sun,etc. Bear in mind that it is quite possible that the top end of the river can freeze solid in the winter and melting ice will tear out vary many withies. I really do suggest you look at doing this in conjunction with Aldeburgh Yacht Club in the spring.
If you contact Andy, Chief Boatman, on 07531 071303 he will give you info about lengths and where to order the willows from. Bearing in mind this is the height of racing season with 2 weeks of Racing Regatta coming up. You need to catch him in the morning prob. I cannot give out Des's personal contacts,sorry. You will need to contact him through Snape Maltings office or catch him on Cygnet.
I guessed at 5 metres for withies so above pic and estimate is about right.
Snape Maltings is now owned by Aldeburgh Music and I would suggest you contact (google) the CEO with your ideas, I am sure they would be very keen to encourage visitors by river and may even assist in this.
I personally am very busy with work and trying to get out of the river for a few days. There are 10's of thousands of people visiting here this weekend for Carnival, there are concerts everyday at Snape, the town is rammed with demanding holiday makers and I am waiting for a storm to pass. Good Luck.
 
TwoHooter said:
I agree this is the wrong time of the year. Everyone far too busy.
Project deferred until the autumn.
Reports and pictures of summer visits to Snape would be good. Keep the thread alive.
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Do the withies in the early spring, the ice sheets that come down the river will remove many of them.
 
Great project and initiative.
I do regret that I didn't manage to get up there this year (cruise fouled up by the weather and so we missed the Spring tides week) but if a set of depths and GPS coordinates is produced in the process of withying, I'm sure that between us, Imrays and Tillergirl a chartlet could get produced.
 
Colvic Watson said:
Do the withies in the early spring, the ice sheets that come down the river will remove many of them.
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Agreed... and I originally thought the installation would be a spring project:-
TwoHooter said:
Do you want to be a Snape Withier next Spring?
Click to expand...

Seashoreman said:
Traditionally (over last 35 years) the withies have been marked with green flags and red painted 5 litre plastic containers. The reasoning being that you are looking for shapes as opposed to colours, which can be impossible at distance/time of day/sun,etc.
Click to expand...
I noticed perhaps a dozen flags and remnants of flags, all of which appeared to be PVC or somesuch, and a handful of plastic bottles. I do want to maintain the traditions but IMHO biodgradability is important. As everyone agrees, the withies all end up floating down the river in the end and I don't want to be responsible for chucking plastic bottles and flags into the Alde, albeit spread over a period of time. Cotton flags won't be as easy to spot as shapes, so perhaps they ought to be combined with open and closed withies as Sailorman suggested?

I will be in the area on Tuesday 24 November if anyone wants to meet for a pint and a chat about the project at lunchtime on Tuesday or Wednesday.
 
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