fergie_mac66
Well-Known Member
we went to snape for a weekend a few years ago our garmin blue charts gave the channel almost all the way with amazing accuracy . Just one turn was wrong in the last few hundred yards
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To Snape or Not
- Thread starter Seashoreman
- Start date
TwoHooter
Well-Known Member
Re: 2015 - Are the withies in?
Here's another thought. Withies are not free, they can be difficult to place, they are subject to damage (intentional or unintentional).... OK they are the traditional mud creek markers but maybe in the special circumstances of Snape they are not what we need.
What about going down at LOW tide in an inflatable with a hand held GPS picking up the centre of the channel and then publishing the course either here or on East Coast Pilot as a series of waymarks, very closely spaced for the difficult bits. I can't do this myself at the moment but I would stand a good few rounds of drinks for anyone who could do it for this season as an experiment.
Is that a good idea?
Here's another thought. Withies are not free, they can be difficult to place, they are subject to damage (intentional or unintentional).... OK they are the traditional mud creek markers but maybe in the special circumstances of Snape they are not what we need.
What about going down at LOW tide in an inflatable with a hand held GPS picking up the centre of the channel and then publishing the course either here or on East Coast Pilot as a series of waymarks, very closely spaced for the difficult bits. I can't do this myself at the moment but I would stand a good few rounds of drinks for anyone who could do it for this season as an experiment.
Is that a good idea?
Poecheng
Well-Known Member
Re: 2015 - Are the withies in?
You beat me to it ! Seems that we cannot rely on withies being present and, as time goes on, perhaps the availability of withies will diminish, less people go and the knowledge is lost.
I did it a few times - years ago - in our 36' yacht but it was a Southerly
so it was "touch and go"
I am up for this suggestion so that we map it well for everyone.
I can supply a Tinker Traveller and outboard (not much I know). I use GPS like everyone else but imagine we would need some special mapping equipment as the route is tortuous and it would take 100s of waypoints to do the route as a dot-to-dot routing. Maybe the East Coast Pilot chaps have the mapping capability?
Maybe the starting point is to do a video and GPS tracking on one of the trip boats?
You beat me to it ! Seems that we cannot rely on withies being present and, as time goes on, perhaps the availability of withies will diminish, less people go and the knowledge is lost.
I did it a few times - years ago - in our 36' yacht but it was a Southerly
so it was "touch and go"I am up for this suggestion so that we map it well for everyone.
I can supply a Tinker Traveller and outboard (not much I know). I use GPS like everyone else but imagine we would need some special mapping equipment as the route is tortuous and it would take 100s of waypoints to do the route as a dot-to-dot routing. Maybe the East Coast Pilot chaps have the mapping capability?
Maybe the starting point is to do a video and GPS tracking on one of the trip boats?
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
Re: 2015 - Are the withies in?
It's not difficult to do anyway, almost all the withies are there, just go slowly and know you're going to nudge quite a few times. The thought of doing it with my eyes glued to a screen, following a route is depressing. It's one of the most beautiful parts of the East Coast and only rewards those who do it by sight and touch, otherwise you may as well just get there by car using the satnav.
It's not difficult to do anyway, almost all the withies are there, just go slowly and know you're going to nudge quite a few times. The thought of doing it with my eyes glued to a screen, following a route is depressing. It's one of the most beautiful parts of the East Coast and only rewards those who do it by sight and touch, otherwise you may as well just get there by car using the satnav.
TwoHooter
Well-Known Member
Now or never
We are leaving home tomorrow for the 5 hour drive to collect our boat at Ipswich tomorrow afternoon and move it to Shotley. On Thursday we will attempt to get to Snape, weather and boat permitting. If anyone with local knowledge would be willing to glance at my passage plan and see if it makes sense I'd be grateful - just send me a PM.
We are leaving home tomorrow for the 5 hour drive to collect our boat at Ipswich tomorrow afternoon and move it to Shotley. On Thursday we will attempt to get to Snape, weather and boat permitting. If anyone with local knowledge would be willing to glance at my passage plan and see if it makes sense I'd be grateful - just send me a PM.
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
Re: Now or never
What new boat is it?
What new boat is it?
TwoHooter
Well-Known Member
Re: Now or never
Er... new boat?
Not exactly. 30 year old Westerly Konsort Duo.
Am I missing the point? Wouldn't be the first time
Er... new boat?
Not exactly. 30 year old Westerly Konsort Duo.
Am I missing the point? Wouldn't be the first time
TwoHooter
Well-Known Member
Arrived yesterday
We arrived at Snape yesterday. Eventful passage and we stuck many times (lost count) but always got off.
As we approached Iken I thought I saw barge sails in the distance, over the marshes. My first thought was that I could see Cygnet at the quay but then I realised most of the sails were up and full. It seemed to be moving. My first reaction was, "You've been thinking about this trip too long; you are seeing things; get a grip!". My second reaction was sheer terror - how was I going to find enough water for our boat and a barge to pass? Well, it kept coming and when we got to the Cliffs I did the gentlemanly thing and turned inshore a bit, and stuck. Which meant that I could relax while Cygnet sailed serenely past, Des single-handing her. For some time afterwards we were able to watch her across the reed beds as she made her way downstream. A Thames sailing barge in a mud creek, sails moving across the marshes.
I don't think it gets any better than that.
http://www.barlingwakeringvillages.co.uk/ltwakering/CygnetBarge.htm
Further up we passed two Dutch yachts and the Trip Boat coming down.
The only other boat at Snape was Enterprise, a cockleboat, built in 1905, so there was someone to talk to. He took the early tide this morning and the Trip Boat is not running for the next 10 days so it's just us here at the moment.
Thanks to everyone for their advice and encouragement.
We arrived at Snape yesterday. Eventful passage and we stuck many times (lost count) but always got off.
As we approached Iken I thought I saw barge sails in the distance, over the marshes. My first thought was that I could see Cygnet at the quay but then I realised most of the sails were up and full. It seemed to be moving. My first reaction was, "You've been thinking about this trip too long; you are seeing things; get a grip!". My second reaction was sheer terror - how was I going to find enough water for our boat and a barge to pass? Well, it kept coming and when we got to the Cliffs I did the gentlemanly thing and turned inshore a bit, and stuck. Which meant that I could relax while Cygnet sailed serenely past, Des single-handing her. For some time afterwards we were able to watch her across the reed beds as she made her way downstream. A Thames sailing barge in a mud creek, sails moving across the marshes.
I don't think it gets any better than that.
http://www.barlingwakeringvillages.co.uk/ltwakering/CygnetBarge.htm
Further up we passed two Dutch yachts and the Trip Boat coming down.
The only other boat at Snape was Enterprise, a cockleboat, built in 1905, so there was someone to talk to. He took the early tide this morning and the Trip Boat is not running for the next 10 days so it's just us here at the moment.
Thanks to everyone for their advice and encouragement.
Cantata
Well-Known Member
Re: Arrived yesterday
Well done that man.
Arrived at Tide Mill Woodbridge today (anyone about?), been hanging about a bit last few days hoping weather would settle. Planning on Southwold early next week, then maybe Ore/Alde towards end next week. Thus missing this week's big tides. Ho hum.
Well done that man.
Arrived at Tide Mill Woodbridge today (anyone about?), been hanging about a bit last few days hoping weather would settle. Planning on Southwold early next week, then maybe Ore/Alde towards end next week. Thus missing this week's big tides. Ho hum.
Rosie1963
Well-Known Member
Re: Arrived yesterday
Is a 5ft draft OK to attempt it? Done it once in shoal draft yacht in 2007, but 5ft draft in a long keeler might be another thing.
Is a 5ft draft OK to attempt it? Done it once in shoal draft yacht in 2007, but 5ft draft in a long keeler might be another thing.
TwoHooter
Well-Known Member
Re: Arrived yesterday
Just a reminder - we are very new to all this and I really must be careful not to give advice - people with more experience and local knowledge would be better.
The short answer is that it could be done but I probably would hesitate before doing it myself unless we can get all the withies back in.
Here's the long answer based on what we found on 18-19 June 2015. All times local in this thread. Our depth gauge is set to measure from the surface. On the day we went up high water at Iken Cliffs (from the BBC website) was at 15:17. We passed at about 12:45. I don't know what time high water was at Snape - I couldn't find it - but we were moored by 13:50. I should have timed the high water - it will help keep the place open if there is a rudimentary tide table for the Quay. The reason we took an hour to get from the cliffs to the quay was that we got badly stuck several times in that stretch whereas in the Troublesome Reach we only got stuck twice and only slightly each time. When we returned the next day we left at 13:15 with high water at Iken Cliffs at 15:58. The tidal stream against us was negligible. So long as we were in the channel we never saw less than 2m and occasionally much more than that. But the full depth extends across a width of as little as 2 or 3m in some places - see picture taken at low water and try to imagine the shape of the banks below water. So you don't have to stray far to go from 2m+ to 0.5m - it can happen in the blink of an eye. We had much less trouble going down because we had begun to get a "feel" for the way the channel moves across from side to side and we had been for a walk to reconnoitre as much as possible - you can walk from the maltings along the river bank to the first right hand bend, and there is another gorgeous waymarked path going down to Iken Cliffs and beyond. BTW we had a trace on our plotter but I now agree with Colvic Watson - the thought of doing it with my eyes glued to a screen is completely un-appealing so I steered from the cockpit tiller with Crew's excellent lookout skills guiding me. So that's the long answer - do-able but dodgy in a 5ft long keel boat. The skipper of the cockleboat told me that some people have taken 3 tides to get up but I don't know if that's true...
Two other points - the trip boat has a tiny draught (it's a Broads trip boat and it's still got "Waveney cruises" painted on the side), he only runs for 6 days in each lunar cycle, at springs, and he can wander off outside the main channel - we saw him doing that to overtake the two dutch yachts we met on our way up, and he goes quite fast, so my original idea of following him is a complete dud. And the other thing is the quay itself. You could get up and back down again on the same tide but you might agree that sort of defeats the object since you can't appreciate the place unless you spend at least one night there. I measured (with a tape measure) 2m from the high water mark to the mud at low tide. The timber facings are rotting but most of them still provide secure mooring - and there are also very substantial steel stanchions in the concrete on the quay itself. So if your lines and cleats and fender board are up to it, and you don't mind checking them every couple of hours while the boat is floating, you could hold your boat against the quay at low tide. I would be very uncertain about using legs. I imagined our bilge keeler would sit on the mud but it didn't, it went straight down, rudder and all, until the boat was sitting on its bottom in the mud (and it took a lot of water to suck it back out again the next day). The mud is so soft that I don't think you could rely on legs to hold a long keel boat upright. But as I began by saying, I am not very experienced and others may think differently.
Back to the withies. They are the right solution because (a) they are part of the tradition of Snape as a busy commercial quay, and (b) they are the most practical method of staying in the channel so that boats can go up to Snape without any trouble. I have sent a PM to Seashoreman who started this thread and I am determined to try and help get the withies back in.
Just a reminder - we are very new to all this and I really must be careful not to give advice - people with more experience and local knowledge would be better.
The short answer is that it could be done but I probably would hesitate before doing it myself unless we can get all the withies back in.
Here's the long answer based on what we found on 18-19 June 2015. All times local in this thread. Our depth gauge is set to measure from the surface. On the day we went up high water at Iken Cliffs (from the BBC website) was at 15:17. We passed at about 12:45. I don't know what time high water was at Snape - I couldn't find it - but we were moored by 13:50. I should have timed the high water - it will help keep the place open if there is a rudimentary tide table for the Quay. The reason we took an hour to get from the cliffs to the quay was that we got badly stuck several times in that stretch whereas in the Troublesome Reach we only got stuck twice and only slightly each time. When we returned the next day we left at 13:15 with high water at Iken Cliffs at 15:58. The tidal stream against us was negligible. So long as we were in the channel we never saw less than 2m and occasionally much more than that. But the full depth extends across a width of as little as 2 or 3m in some places - see picture taken at low water and try to imagine the shape of the banks below water. So you don't have to stray far to go from 2m+ to 0.5m - it can happen in the blink of an eye. We had much less trouble going down because we had begun to get a "feel" for the way the channel moves across from side to side and we had been for a walk to reconnoitre as much as possible - you can walk from the maltings along the river bank to the first right hand bend, and there is another gorgeous waymarked path going down to Iken Cliffs and beyond. BTW we had a trace on our plotter but I now agree with Colvic Watson - the thought of doing it with my eyes glued to a screen is completely un-appealing so I steered from the cockpit tiller with Crew's excellent lookout skills guiding me. So that's the long answer - do-able but dodgy in a 5ft long keel boat. The skipper of the cockleboat told me that some people have taken 3 tides to get up but I don't know if that's true...
Two other points - the trip boat has a tiny draught (it's a Broads trip boat and it's still got "Waveney cruises" painted on the side), he only runs for 6 days in each lunar cycle, at springs, and he can wander off outside the main channel - we saw him doing that to overtake the two dutch yachts we met on our way up, and he goes quite fast, so my original idea of following him is a complete dud. And the other thing is the quay itself. You could get up and back down again on the same tide but you might agree that sort of defeats the object since you can't appreciate the place unless you spend at least one night there. I measured (with a tape measure) 2m from the high water mark to the mud at low tide. The timber facings are rotting but most of them still provide secure mooring - and there are also very substantial steel stanchions in the concrete on the quay itself. So if your lines and cleats and fender board are up to it, and you don't mind checking them every couple of hours while the boat is floating, you could hold your boat against the quay at low tide. I would be very uncertain about using legs. I imagined our bilge keeler would sit on the mud but it didn't, it went straight down, rudder and all, until the boat was sitting on its bottom in the mud (and it took a lot of water to suck it back out again the next day). The mud is so soft that I don't think you could rely on legs to hold a long keel boat upright. But as I began by saying, I am not very experienced and others may think differently.
Back to the withies. They are the right solution because (a) they are part of the tradition of Snape as a busy commercial quay, and (b) they are the most practical method of staying in the channel so that boats can go up to Snape without any trouble. I have sent a PM to Seashoreman who started this thread and I am determined to try and help get the withies back in.
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Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
Re: Arrived yesterday
Go into settings and attachments and delete your old ones. Great post BTW.
Go into settings and attachments and delete your old ones. Great post BTW.
TwoHooter
Well-Known Member
TwoHooter
Well-Known Member
Cygnet
I can now post pictures again so here's the Thames sailing barge Cygnet passing us at Iken Cliff - one of life's magical moments.
The picture will presumably disappear when my quota has been used up and I have to delete my old pictures so I can add new ones.
I can now post pictures again so here's the Thames sailing barge Cygnet passing us at Iken Cliff - one of life's magical moments.
The picture will presumably disappear when my quota has been used up and I have to delete my old pictures so I can add new ones.
Plum
Well-Known Member
Re: 2015 - Are the withies in?
Hi. Did you and twohooter manage to record a GPS track of the channel up to Snape?
Colin. Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk
You beat me to it ! Seems that we cannot rely on withies being present and, as time goes on, perhaps the availability of withies will diminish, less people go and the knowledge is lost.
I did it a few times - years ago - in our 36' yacht but it was a Southerly
I am up for this suggestion so that we map it well for everyone.
I can supply a Tinker Traveller and outboard (not much I know). I use GPS like everyone else but imagine we would need some special mapping equipment as the route is tortuous and it would take 100s of waypoints to do the route as a dot-to-dot routing. Maybe the East Coast Pilot chaps have the mapping capability?
Maybe the starting point is to do a video and GPS tracking on one of the trip boats?
Hi. Did you and twohooter manage to record a GPS track of the channel up to Snape?
Colin. Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk
Poecheng
Well-Known Member
Re: 2015 - Are the withies in?
Hi Colin,
No is the answer.
I did get help from the East Coast Pilot crew about data-logging etc and how it might be done.
I think the response that followed my post (from memory not from 2Hooter) was that it was not much point/fun following a whole series (100s ?) of waypoints.
Equally just a few waypoints is no use to man nor beast because of the tortuous path that needs to be followed.
As said, I did it about 13 years ago in a Southerly 115. I recall that the effect of the wind on the water marked out the deeper water (from recollection it is smoother where the water is deeper) and that, coupled with the knowledge that the deeper water generally lies on the outside of bend and the sediment on the inside, got us through most of it.
May give it a crack again this year though Mrs Poecheng a bit miffed at going aground even when we were in the channel (or obviously not) going into the Backwaters when the westerly winds had blown the red channel markers to the very edge.......
Hi Colin,
No is the answer.
I did get help from the East Coast Pilot crew about data-logging etc and how it might be done.
I think the response that followed my post (from memory not from 2Hooter) was that it was not much point/fun following a whole series (100s ?) of waypoints.
Equally just a few waypoints is no use to man nor beast because of the tortuous path that needs to be followed.
As said, I did it about 13 years ago in a Southerly 115. I recall that the effect of the wind on the water marked out the deeper water (from recollection it is smoother where the water is deeper) and that, coupled with the knowledge that the deeper water generally lies on the outside of bend and the sediment on the inside, got us through most of it.
May give it a crack again this year though Mrs Poecheng a bit miffed at going aground even when we were in the channel (or obviously not) going into the Backwaters when the westerly winds had blown the red channel markers to the very edge.......
Plum
Well-Known Member
Re: 2015 - Are the withies in?
Colin, I do not disagree regarding no fun just following waypoints but on the other hand I also beleive in using all the information you can get. I have done this in other tidal creaks with a GPS that records a track on the screen (you can usually set the increments by either time or distance) then you have that track on the screen on the return trip then all you need to do is look at the screen occasionally to see if you are straying off one side or other of the recorded track. The track can be saved for another visit. Although a track is in fact just a series of waypoints, with a saved track you don't have to worry about manually selecting or following individual waypoints. I have used this technique a few times and once it helped me out of a creak in the dark with no lit nav buoys.
Yes, a Southerly with lifting keel must be very useful too!
Colin. Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk
Colin, I do not disagree regarding no fun just following waypoints but on the other hand I also beleive in using all the information you can get. I have done this in other tidal creaks with a GPS that records a track on the screen (you can usually set the increments by either time or distance) then you have that track on the screen on the return trip then all you need to do is look at the screen occasionally to see if you are straying off one side or other of the recorded track. The track can be saved for another visit. Although a track is in fact just a series of waypoints, with a saved track you don't have to worry about manually selecting or following individual waypoints. I have used this technique a few times and once it helped me out of a creak in the dark with no lit nav buoys.
Yes, a Southerly with lifting keel must be very useful too!
Colin. Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk
TwoHooter
Well-Known Member
Snape Withiers?
I think my plotter track would be useful if you wanted to be sure of getting stuck
I agree that a good plotter track would be helpful, but the right way to navigate the Alde to Snape is by following withies because they are part of the history and traditions of the river. The Alde without withies is a poor do. I would like to see if a fund could be started to pay for a fresh set, with a simple way for people to make donations for upkeep when they get to Snape. Most east coast types would be willing to donate £10 via something like a Paypal account towards maintaining the withies if they do make it to the Maltings... wouldn't they? The flags could even have names and messages - a bit like the Queenborough planks. It's a bit difficult to organise from where I live (Gloucestershire) and where we keep our boat at present (Chichester) but if this does happen I will donate £200 to help get it off the ground. The starting point needs to be finding someone who is willing and able to put the withies in. What about a joint effort - a little rally of volunteers with suitable shoal draft boats and dinghies one weekend next spring perhaps? Barbeque at Iken on the Saturday evening? The other thing is to source the withies and the flags and for that we would need an estimate of the quantity needed. I don't suppose permission would be needed from anybody, one would just get on and do it. The Snape Withiers - a bunch of people who want to keep the withy tradition alive and keep the river open for navigation. Anyone got any thoughts about this? Has anything like this been done anywhere else? Am I mad?
I think my plotter track would be useful if you wanted to be sure of getting stuck
I agree that a good plotter track would be helpful, but the right way to navigate the Alde to Snape is by following withies because they are part of the history and traditions of the river. The Alde without withies is a poor do. I would like to see if a fund could be started to pay for a fresh set, with a simple way for people to make donations for upkeep when they get to Snape. Most east coast types would be willing to donate £10 via something like a Paypal account towards maintaining the withies if they do make it to the Maltings... wouldn't they? The flags could even have names and messages - a bit like the Queenborough planks. It's a bit difficult to organise from where I live (Gloucestershire) and where we keep our boat at present (Chichester) but if this does happen I will donate £200 to help get it off the ground. The starting point needs to be finding someone who is willing and able to put the withies in. What about a joint effort - a little rally of volunteers with suitable shoal draft boats and dinghies one weekend next spring perhaps? Barbeque at Iken on the Saturday evening? The other thing is to source the withies and the flags and for that we would need an estimate of the quantity needed. I don't suppose permission would be needed from anybody, one would just get on and do it. The Snape Withiers - a bunch of people who want to keep the withy tradition alive and keep the river open for navigation. Anyone got any thoughts about this? Has anything like this been done anywhere else? Am I mad?
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
Re: Snape Withiers?
It's a great idea. Spring 2016 would be best.
It's a great idea. Spring 2016 would be best.
Plum
Well-Known Member
Re: Snape Withiers?
A great idea. Even though I would like to see a GPS track shared, I agree that the first priority would be the withies. In addition to online donation maybe also a method of charging £10 per night stay at the quay having used the withies to get there. What we need is someone to take the lead and organise and someone to create a website for the initiative. Any volunteers????
Colin. Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk
A great idea. Even though I would like to see a GPS track shared, I agree that the first priority would be the withies. In addition to online donation maybe also a method of charging £10 per night stay at the quay having used the withies to get there. What we need is someone to take the lead and organise and someone to create a website for the initiative. Any volunteers????
Colin. Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk