To d3 or not to d3, that is the question!

[raptorheli2]

Hi all,

Newbie to the forum but had many boats over the years.

I'm coming from a rib to the dark side potentially so go easy on me

I have found a boat I like after nearly 2 years of looking with a very low hour (100 hours) D3 190 from 2009, I have spent all day looking at various threads and the gist of it seems to be these have problems and perhaps to be avoided. I'm happy to fix the turbo vanes when servicing and general maintenance etc. I also see you can get vodia and cables etc from China for cheap ( 100 quid).

I do like the boat but if this is a bad idea I can easily walk away now....thoughts appreciated.

 

[simonfraser]

any engine with such low hours has not been used much, which is not a good point.
you have seen the maintenance record / bills ?
what is the access like, if poor walk away.

 

[Bigplumbs]

Have you been on the boat and see and herd the engine running. Many engines have not been used much so I would not worry too much about that. How much are you spending

 

[dankilb]

No knowledge of the newer Volvos… but 100 hours is so low as to be almost new.

The Beta 50 on our boat had 300 hours when we bought it - at 9 years old. It had be laid up a season after installation. I agree this isn’t ideal and I know it led to some corrosion on ours - visible as a bit of rusty sludge in the coolant and one core plug had rusted through (a pin hole, mind - but still…). Ideally a ‘laid up’ engine should’ve been better protected for long term storage…

But I still consider that we got a ‘new’ engine out of the deal and it now runs sweet and hasn’t let us down since. Because of other issues of long lay-up and neglect, the boat was also a (pre-pandemic) bargain. Perhaps the price - as always - will be the deciding factor?

 

[Portofino]

By way of background Volvo Penta used to establish very low entry credit lines with builders .What I mean they invoice the builder once the boats sold by the builder .
All others motor manufacturers like any business esp big ticket items like boat motors would dispatch once the funds hit the engine manufactures account .
If you read JFM s build treads he paid for the CATs effectively before they were fitted by Fairline and in some way owned them while they sat in the Fairline factory despite part payments etc .

So the popularity of smaller VP engines is imho more to do with boat builders cash flow in the accounts than actual best fit from out there .Others might be Nani , Yanmar , and others .Cummins start at 6/7 L and MAN at 8 L , MTU mid teens L so these enter in bigger boats .
Volvo bows out in leisure at 12/13 L .

I understand the accounting system is different in Italy so you never see VP products in Italian boats , maybe they prefer to carry a huge bank loan overdraft continuously and don’t mind fronting up the capitol to fund engine manufacturers or get a better positive tax concession on said bank overdraft .
Anyhow the financial incentive isn’t there offered by VP of with holding invoices until the punter forks out for the boat .
So they pick motors on merit .Or turned around there is nothing clouding there judgement !

I was nearly about to pull the trigger on a Riviera approx 45 at Cannes .The Fr dealer I knew from a motoring club .
I d been to the dealership in Cogolin earlier but he was out and his brother showed me round what used boats they had on the hard .Yes I did study hull form as well chaps . Australian waters apparently get short sharp chops and wind .
Theses are good sea boats and fitted our criteria at the time as wife was about to call it a day unless we found a better handling boat .
At the show the I met the other brother who instantly recognised me ( from car club activities) , Put his arm around my shoulder like a long lost mate and whispered in my ear “ don’t get the Volvo Penta version go for the Cummins “

Ands he’s a dealer ! Well 1/2 and 1/2 with his brother.The show boat had a VP engines btw .

The boat came with either 74/75 Ps or eq Cummins .
The Aussies just gave punters two the choices back then .He’s said he would find one with Cummins if I was going Fwds .

As it happens the Riva guys got there hooks into me and we ended up with a MAN powered Itama - another story .

Incidentally Ferretti group the two Bros there in the 90s and up to date never use VP .The current line up spans a lot of modals across the range .Ok at the larger end , but there sone smaller Rivas and 45 fter FB s , and opens at the bottom .
Smallest Itama the 40 that morphed into the 45 and 45 s went through 8.3 L MAN s now on Cummins .VP never got a look in .

There will be a reason .It you don’t know the answer to anything, just watch + listen observe.

 

[stelican]

Porto
A few years ago Cranchi were Volvo Penta Europe largest customer. Were also solely fitted by Absolute , Gobbi ( apart from one venture with Seatek) and Atlantis upto 50ft.

 

[raptorheli2]

Have you been on the boat and see and herd the engine running. Many engines have not been used much so I would not worry too much about that. How much are you spending

Boat out water so not heard it yet but will do soon. I know it was out last week to test after belts etc change.

Be spending 50k ish

 

[raptorheli2]

any engine with such low hours has not been used much, which is not a good point.
you have seen the maintenance record / bills ?
what is the access like, if poor walk away.

I haven't seen the records yet but will do so before proceeding.

Access to the engine I'll take a better look at though, good point.

 

[Rangerman]

I had a D3 110 for 12 years and apart from going into limp mode once due to a loose connection it was otherwise faultless. Never had it professionally service just change the oil and filters every year and cleaned the heat exchange once. Ran it for just over 1000 hours

 

[stelican]

Some of the early sport boat imports from USA had a composite cased sterndrive, If the case gets damaged spares are no longer available.

 

[Portofino]

Porto
A few years ago Cranchi were Volvo Penta Europe largest customer. Were also solely fitted by Absolute , Gobbi ( apart from one venture with Seatek) and Atlantis upto 50ft.

Everything is great new with warranties .
Its @ yr 10 or 15 that the base quality materials used start to surface .
Plenty of VP woe threads on here and indeed a FB page titled the same .
You don.t see it with other marques .Even if you take , factor in the numbers the volume argument put by some to reassure themselves.

Take the D series which the 3 in Q is , they have throw away blocks , instead of separate replaceable liners .
Just saying .So what happens at say [ insert your 4 figure number ] hrs if it needs a timely rebuild ??

 

[stelican]

Everything is great new with warranties .
Its @ yr 10 or 15 that the base quality materials used start to surface .
Plenty of VP woe threads on here and indeed a FB page titled the same .
You don.t see it with other marques .Even if you take , factor in the numbers the volume argument put by some to reassure themselves.

Take the D series which the 3 in Q is , they have throw away blocks , instead of separate replaceable liners .
Just saying .So what happens at say [ insert your 4 figure number ] hrs if it needs a timely rebuild ??

Yes I am aware of this but was referring to your statement about Italian builders not using Volvo Penta engines and drives.

 

[julians]

Everything is great new with warranties .
Its @ yr 10 or 15 that the base quality materials used start to surface .
Plenty of VP woe threads on here and indeed a FB page titled the same .
You don.t see it with other marques .Even if you take , factor in the numbers the volume argument put by some to reassure themselves.

Take the D series which the 3 in Q is , they have throw away blocks , instead of separate replaceable liners .
Just saying .So what happens at say [ insert your 4 figure number ] hrs if it needs a timely rebuild ??

There are oversize piston kits available for the d series.

 

[Tranona]

Just saying .So what happens at say [ insert your 4 figure number ] hrs if it needs a timely rebuild ??

The engine has 100 hours on it. Assuming it is still "as new" (a bit of a question mark) the chances of it ever going into 4 figures of hours use are pretty low - indeed any weekend leisure boat ever requiring a rebuild is pretty close to zero. Different if the boat is commercial or high usage for other reasons, but the "cheap" engines are there because that is the requirement and on the majority of cases will outlast the usable life of the boat.

In fact the engine in question is derived from an automotive unit which has a reputation for long life (ask any Swedish taxi driver)and in marine form is usually sold with lower power ratings than in automotive form. Pointless making comparisons with those other makes that you constantly say are "better" when none of them make engines of this type or for this type of boat

 

[stelican]

There are oversize piston kits available for the d series.

Is this something recent?

 

[volvopaul]

Shocking engine and drive set up , a disaster for Volvo .

 

[julians]

Is this something recent?

Don't know, I don't think they are official Volvo penta oversized pistons,but third party ones. I have no idea if they're any good etc . I just happened to notice that they were available now.

here they are - Piston Kit 0.50mm oversize for Volvo Penta D4, D6 inboard engines, marineparts.eu

 

[julians]

The engine has 100 hours on it. Assuming it is still "as new" (a bit of a question mark) the chances of it ever going into 4 figures of hours use are pretty low - indeed any weekend leisure boat ever requiring a rebuild is pretty close to zero. Different if the boat is commercial or high usage for other reasons, but the "cheap" engines are there because that is the requirement and on the majority of cases will outlast the usable life of the boat.

In fact the engine in question is derived from an automotive unit which has a reputation for long life (ask any Swedish taxi driver)and in marine form is usually sold with lower power ratings than in automotive form. Pointless making comparisons with those other makes that you constantly say are "better" when none of them make engines of this type or for this type of boat

This is a good point, also often at the smaller end of the market your only choice is boat that contains an engine by Volvo penta, so whether man ,Cummins or cat make a better engine is a very moot point. The choice is often just between volvo penta d3 or d4 engine, or VP d4 and d6 engine.

 

[Portofino]

The engine has 100 hours on it. Assuming it is still "as new" (a bit of a question mark) the chances of it ever going into 4 figures of hours use are pretty low - indeed any weekend leisure boat ever requiring a rebuild is pretty close to zero. Different if the boat is commercial or high usage for other reasons, but the "cheap" engines are there because that is the requirement and on the majority of cases will outlast the usable life of the boat.

In fact the engine in question is derived from an automotive unit which has a reputation for long life (ask any Swedish taxi driver)and in marine form is usually sold with lower power ratings than in automotive form. Pointless making comparisons with those other makes that you constantly say are "better" when none of them make engines of this type or for this type of boat

It’s all about informed choice guys reaching out .The more he understands the more informed that will be .
Lets avoid the car comparison s they rarely end up well with marine / boats .

Nanni and yanmar do smaller displacement of comparable size , if there’s no stern drive or IPS.
I think the Japanese engineer properly. Vetus and Perkins are another two .

Take my geny engine a mere 5/6 Hp 300 cc Yanmar .20 years old still kicking , just gets a fresh drink of oil all 0.8 L worths annually .Externally ( never been opened ) no sign of corrosion, it’s still got its SSteel exhaust and all the bolts on the engine have not corroded sat in a salty environment.Don’t even think it’s injector ever been out either .

As said new with warranties, knowing it’s gonna be flipped inside 3 yrs who gives a 7oss delving deeper than the brochure the grey slacks and blue blazer salesman gives out at boat shows .

If it’s got a parking aid fitted a newbie is hooked, buts anotherVP marketing coup out side of this thread .

I used the throw away block as a finger on a patients pulse , a barometer.It’s not the be all and end all , but makes you wonder , well me wonder what else when they came to a fork in the design road did they cheap out on ? Deviate from others ?
Can’t imagine Perkins R + D guys taking the same path(s) as VP .

Some one once said , delved deep into the Yanmar 1 GM .It was originally conceived as a paddy pump motor . Knowing the oil quality would be poor in the field s and most run continuously, Yanmar over over engineered ( at further expense) the piston rings , skirts and a few other tech stuff for longevity and cooling .Made allowances for crap oil .
As you know in boats they are un bustable ……there’s a reason .

 

[Portofino]

Don't know, I don't think they are official Volvo penta oversized pistons,but third party ones. I have no idea if they're any good etc . I just happened to notice that they were available now.

here they are - Piston Kit 0.50mm oversize for Volvo Penta D4, D6 inboard engines, marineparts.eu

They all do oversize kits nothing new in engine re building there .The crucial point is honing the bores .Finding an engineer with the kit to do that correctly .As opposed to just pop out the liners and refit , something volvo Paul could do in his shed .

As I said no one’s gonna open the batting at a boat show with hundreds of thousands burning a hole in there pocket , eager to get on the water by asking the sales rep “ is the engine sleeved with replaceable liners “ .
Bad enough confusing the sales team with the word “ deadrise “ or “ does it slam “