Tiller Pilots - Which ones to buy?

[Refueler]

So what if you shorten the 18-inch dimension? Force will not be an issue for most boats. I've seen installations as short as 13 inches, but their reason was geometry (small boat). You can always adjust the gain and damping defaults.

The older AH units such as I have .... the Sea State can be altered - but not gain / damping as separates.

Shortening the 'rod' ? I don't think that would be a good idea .... the solution for smaller boats when the AH units were current - was a bracket to mount the unit at designed rod length..... not to shorten. Of course the same 'extensions' to screw into rod were available and carried over to the ST series.

 

[zulloboy]

thinwater said:
So what if you shorten the 18-inch dimension? Force will not be an issue for most boats. I've seen installations as short as 13 inches, but their reason was geometry (small boat). You can always adjust the gain and damping defaults.


The issue is that the unit will drive as far as it can until it is stopped - either by the end of the tiller range of movement or by its own internal structure. In either case, the motor remains energised, trying to push the rod against the immovable. The eventual result if this happens frequently and/or long eough is variously: a burnt-out motor, or stripped drive belt, or chewed up rubber buffer ring (fragments of which then tangle themselves in the compass causing random course-holding problems) or on earlier PCB's overheating of a diode which fell off as the solder melted!
Hence the limit switches I fitted.
Simrads have stall protection to prevent all this.
Take a bow Raymarine, you scurvy thieving swine!

Cheers, Graeme

 

[Buck Turgidson]

The Limit Switch or Lack of is what made me switch from ST to TP. The actuator used by both pc Nautik and pelagic ( it’s the Same RAM) does have Limit Switches.

 

[fredrussell]

In one of Concerto’s clips of his boat sailing under his Ray Ev100 autopilot. As a gust makes the boat heel you see the TP react instantly to counter this. A Simrad or ST1000/2000 wouldn’t react to that heel. The difference is that newer devices have (I think) a 9 axis sensor, rather than just a fluxgate compass. My ST2000 just doesn’t react quickly enough to gusts on my fairly light and responsive boat.

 

[Tranona]

In one of Concerto’s clips of his boat sailing under his Ray Ev100 autopilot. As a gust makes the boat heel you see the TP react instantly to counter this. A Simrad or ST1000/2000 wouldn’t react to that heel. The difference is that newer devices have (I think) a 9 axis sensor, rather than just a fluxgate compass. My ST2000 just doesn’t react quickly enough to gusts on my fairly light and responsive boat.

That is an important point. The stand alone tiller pilot designs date from long before sophisticated control systems were on the market. For those of us who bought them when they first came out they were a revelation - but then we had simple small(ish) boats and if we were lucky a Decca.

Of course things have moved on and to get the features that people desire now plus the power to deal with larger boats and a wider range of conditions it is necessary to split the control from the driving ram. You then get a whole new level of performance - at twice the price. In fact the tiller pilots have been falling in price in real terms as the makers try to maximise volume out of a slowing shrinking market. I paid less than £500 for an ST 2000 recently whereas the current price for an EV100 is over £1500. Many people don't need all the features, but would benefit from a more powerful ram so a PC Nautic at just over £1k might be worth considering.

 

[thinwater]

The older AH units such as I have .... the Sea State can be altered - but not gain / damping as separates.

Shortening the 'rod' ? I don't think that would be a good idea .... the solution for smaller boats when the AH units were current - was a bracket to mount the unit at designed rod length..... not to shorten. Of course the same 'extensions' to screw into rod were available and carried over to the ST series.

^^ The 18" dimension is the pin-to-pintle length. No unit modification. What this will do is give the unit longer throw, which is what you said could be a deficiency.

Yes, I am familiar with the limit switch problem. Always seemed kinda dumb. My Simrad unit had the pulley come off the shaft.

 

[Refueler]

^^ The 18" dimension is the pin-to-pintle length. No unit modification. What this will do is give the unit longer throw, which is what you said could be a deficiency.

Yes, I am familiar with the limit switch problem. Always seemed kinda dumb. My Simrad unit had the pulley come off the shaft.

Sorry what deficiency ?? I was just replying in kind based on Weather Helm of the other post.

 

[DangerousPirate]

Sounds like a real problem, I have sailed mostly without any tiller pilot at all so far, so not overly much experience there as the weather was fair and there weren't any challenging conditions.
My old AH800 broke that way though It burned it's own motor by driving the rod out and out, until it went up in smoke.
I just plan on longterm cruising with my boat, in probably all sorts of conditions. Not sure how often I'd use the tiller pilot actually ,as I do enjoy a bit of handsteering, but for longer solo passages, I think it's an essential item.

 

[Refueler]

Sounds like a real problem, I have sailed mostly without any tiller pilot at all so far, so not overly much experience there as the weather was fair and there weren't any challenging conditions.
My old AH800 broke that way though It burned it's own motor by driving the rod out and out, until it went up in smoke.
I just plan on longterm cruising with my boat, in probably all sorts of conditions. Not sure how often I'd use the tiller pilot actually ,as I do enjoy a bit of handsteering, but for longer solo passages, I think it's an essential item.

I love the freedom the AH gives ... especially with the remote.

I am always aghast at the reports of failure due to motor not stopping ... as I said before ... when mine has hit stops ... it GRRRR's for a bit then switches to STBY ..... and starts beeping ... Both my 800 and 1000 have no modifications at all ..

 

[DangerousPirate]

I love the freedom the AH gives ... especially with the remote.

I am always aghast at the reports of failure due to motor not stopping ... as I said before ... when mine has hit stops ... it GRRRR's for a bit then switches to STBY ..... and starts beeping ... Both my 800 and 1000 have no modifications at all ..

Are the AH models still being produced though?

 

[fredrussell]

Are the AH models still being produced though?

There’s a picture of one of the last of them on the BayeaxTapestry.

 

[Refueler]

Are the AH models still being produced though?

No of course not as they were the base units that evolved into the Raymarine ST1000 etc.

Very early Nautech AH units had the dial compass on top :

which then updated to the press button versions as I have :

The only reason I post about them - is they have similar case sealing and internals ... so should relate same as the ST's - which also are out of production I believe..... replaced by the ST1000+ series ...

 

[DangerousPirate]

No of course not as they were the base units that evolved into the Raymarine ST1000 etc.

Very early Nautech AH units had the dial compass on top :

which then updated to the press button versions as I have :

The only reason I post about them - is they have similar case sealing and internals ... so should relate same as the ST's - which also are out of production I believe..... replaced by the ST1000+ series ...

I was confused for a moment.

 

[Tranona]

Are the AH models still being produced though?

The ST 1000 is the latest version of the AH - say latest as I bought an ST 1000 in 1993 or thereabouts1 But that is too small and the ST2000 will be OK for moderate use and for steering under power. If you are really going serious cruising though you need an EV 100 which is vastly superior in particular because it has the same electronics as the latest wheel pilots and will interface with all modern instruments if you so desire. You will soon tire of steering on long passages and once you have experienced an autopilot you would not want to go back.

 

[BabaYaga]

So what if you shorten the 18-inch dimension? Force will not be an issue for most boats. I've seen installations as short as 13 inches, but their reason was geometry (small boat). You can always adjust the gain and damping defaults.

It seems that Raymarine does not currently support such modification, but they used to do so.
This is from a tiller drive installation guide dated 2006.
Although this refers to a TP model with separate compass, course computer and control head (possibly Smartpilot), it gives an idea of how much force is lost and speed and steering angle is gained by reducing the normal 18 inch distance between rudder stock line and drive pin on tiller.

 

[KompetentKrew]

The actuator used by both pc Nautik and pelagic ( it’s the Same RAM) does have Limit Switches.

It's a Wuxi Hongba's HB-DJ809, for anyone who's looking for one. A stroke length of 25cm is pretty much a drop-in replacement for the Raymarine QO47 tiller drive (by the time you've fashioned a butt pin) whereas PC Nautic uses 30cm for some reason. You need to order it with the lowest reduction ratio, with a max load of 200N but the fastest travel.

I have a couple of these available if anyone is in the EU and wants one.

In one of Concerto’s clips of his boat sailing under his Ray Ev100 autopilot. As a gust makes the boat heel you see the TP react instantly to counter this. A Simrad or ST1000/2000 wouldn’t react to that heel. The difference is that newer devices have (I think) a 9 axis sensor, rather than just a fluxgate compass. My ST2000 just doesn’t react quickly enough to gusts on my fairly light and responsive boat.

The HB-DJ809 is available in a version with a potentiometer behind the motor (observe the lower actuator in this pic has a bigger body) so the EV100 can be made aware of the position of the rudder at all times. I believe it must be wired with a couple of other resistors, and the ACU will see it just like Raymarine's own €300 M81105 rotary rudder reference transducer. I'm guessing Concerto doesn't have this, but it should improve the autopilot still further.

 

[thinwater]

It seems that Raymarine does not currently support such modification, but they used to do so.
This is from a tiller drive installation guide dated 2006.
Although this refers to a TP model with separate compass, course computer and control head (possibly Smartpilot), it gives an idea of how much force is lost and speed and steering angle is gained by reducing the normal 18 inch distance between rudder stock line and drive pin on tiller.

Refueler. I guess I missunderstood what you were getting at:
"The 'end stop' item ... my AH 800 and 1000 have driven to end stops often - as I use them to go about (pressing both 1 and 10 together) ... and the AH unit has gone over ... and if boat stalls, fails to complete - you hear the AH GRRRRR as its trying to add more helm over and then default to STBY ....
I haven't had mine have 'damage' from this."

Decreasing the pin-to-pintle distance effectively increase the throw by decreasing the leverage, and could reduce end stop problems. Or so people who have done this tell me.

Baba Yaga. I know of people that have done this on smaller boats. No problems. I suspect they do not support it because for most boats 18" is the best compromise and saying otherwise complicates things. But smaller boats and lighter boats (multihulls, for example) require more helm angle because they need to get through tacks quicker (do not carry their way as well). This is particularly true in light winds when autotack is too slow and the 31 degree helm range too limitied for many mutihulls. 39 degrees is more like it. In strong winds (high speeds) my tri is quick enough that it doesn't matter. My cruising cat does fine with standard autotack speeds.

The 2006 and current TP manuals say this:
"The dimensions given in Figures 5.1 and 5.2 should be adhered
to as closely as possible, especially Fig 5.1. Some tolerance on
the distance from the tillerstock (Fig 5.2) is permissible, but the
Tillerpilot may require a Gain adjustment to compensate."

One-size-fits-all seldom does, really. Much easier for the manufacturer to keep it simple.

 

[BabaYaga]

Agreed.
I have for a while been toying with the idea of a 'double installation' for my EV-100, that is drive pin and socket at 18 and 14 inches from rudder stock.

The 2006 and current TP manuals say this:
"The dimensions given in Figures 5.1 and 5.2 should be adhered
to as closely as possible, especially Fig 5.1. Some tolerance on
the distance from the tillerstock (Fig 5.2) is permissible, but the
Tillerpilot may require a Gain adjustment to compensate."

The wording in the 2006 installation guide I am quoting from seems a bit more open minded about this distance:

 

[KompetentKrew]

The wording in the 2006 installation guide I am quoting from seems a bit more open minded about this distance:

Any chance of a link to it?

 

[BabaYaga]

Any chance of a link to it?

I have downloaded it at some point, but don't remember from where.
If you send me a PM with your email address, I can forward the pdf.