Tie up your boat - MBY video

[MapisM]

my criticism/cringing of those who simply loop round (bollard or cleat) and bring the line back to the boat still stands.

Positively +1 on that.
I also agree that cleats are not so rare in the Med, btw.
J, you probably didn't notice this in CF because you were moored on the main dock with the huge bollards (meant for boats of 60+ m), but floating docks do have cleats.
And I can think of several marinas with a similar arrangement.

 

[MapisM]

How else would you attach a line to a bollard other than per my post a spliced loop or a bowline?

That's fine, in my books.
It's going round the bollard and back to the onboard cleat that's shabby, unless used temporarily for leaving you berth with no dock hand.

 

[jfm]

John and jrudge I think you're at crossed purposes. A bowline loop over a bollard is fine because no chafe. A line returned to the boat as john describes can usually chafe somewhat and goes around a tiny radius if looped around a cleat or ring. I agree that's not great and I don't do it but exception is where you want to release it from the boat on a short visit to some port or other in calm weather
Must admit I have never noticed any dock cleats in my 14y in Antibes. Maybe in the very small berths just south of the shipyard (which are floating anchored pontoons). No worries.

 

[iapetus]

Golfe Juan, Monaco, Bastia, St-Florent, Menton all have cleats for anything smaller than 14m (ie. my humble boat). I must confess I always use chain (which some harbours arguably prohibit on cleats as it slowly grinds the metal), springs and spliced loops. And an OXXO with no additional subtleties on the boat. Already broke springs in the winter due to foul weather, but the OXXO never slipped

 

[MapisM]

John and jrudge I think you're at crossed purposes. A bowline loop over a bollard is fine because no chafe. A line returned to the boat as john describes can usually chafe somewhat and goes around a tiny radius if looped around a cleat or ring. I agree that's not great and I don't do it but exception is where you want to release it from the boat on a short visit to some port or other in calm weather

Yup, the returned line(s) advantage is of course the possibility to recover the line upon departure without any help, and I agreed that it's ok for that purpose, in my books.
With some care anyway, because it can happen that the loose end gets trapped somewhere on the dock while recovering the line, with the boat already moving ahead (don't ask me how I know!).
In fact, I developed the habit of releasing from the boat cleat BOTH ends, before letting one go. This way, in the worst case, you can always let the whole line on the dock right away, and recover it later.
But chafe aside, the most important reason why returned lines are a no-no is that they restrict other folks moored on the same bollard with a spliced loop to recover their line when leaving.
It ain't easy to explain this to anyone not used to Med mooring, but the correct practice when securing a line to a bollard already used also by a neighbor boat is to pass your own spliced loop under and inside the one of the other boat.
That's something usually done by the marina guys actually, but surely the Med boaters among us noticed that they do that - well, those who know their job, anyway.
The reason is that this allows BOTH boats to release their own lines independently, and recover them when leaving, without needing the neighbor boat to release their line too.
By throwing a line around a bollard where there's already the neighbor boat's line, return it onboard and secure it on your own boat cleat, the returned line stays above the other boat's line, practically "locking" it... :ambivalence:

PS: as an aside, that's the reason why I always use a bowline rather than a spliced loop, at the dock end.
This way, if someone "locks" my line and goes away, I don't need to find a way to climb on the offending boat to temporary release her returned line, and I can just untie my own bowline instead.
Still very annoying, but not a big issue.

 

[jfm]

But you can still do the "under and inside" trick if you wrap your line around the bollard and return it to your boat. It's not a trick that works just with spliced or bowline loops.

Not that I would!

We're getting quite done-to-death here .

 

[Bouba]

Yup, the returned line(s) advantage is of course the possibility to recover the line upon departure without any help, and I agreed that it's ok for that purpose, in my books.
With some care anyway, because it can happen that the loose end gets trapped somewhere on the dock while recovering the line, with the boat already moving ahead (don't ask me how I know!).
In fact, I developed the habit of releasing from the boat cleat BOTH ends, before letting one go. This way, in the worst case, you can always let the whole line on the dock right away, and recover it later.
But chafe aside, the most important reason why returned lines are a no-no is that they restrict other folks moored on the same bollard with a spliced loop to recover their line when leaving.
It ain't easy to explain this to anyone not used to Med mooring, but the correct practice when securing a line to a bollard already used also by a neighbor boat is to pass your own spliced loop under and inside the one of the other boat.
That's something usually done by the marina guys actually, but surely the Med boaters among us noticed that they do that - well, those who know their job, anyway.
The reason is that this allows BOTH boats to release their own lines independently, and recover them when leaving, without needing the neighbor boat to release their line too.
By throwing a line around a bollard where there's already the neighbor boat's line, return it onboard and secure it on your own boat cleat, the returned line stays above the other boat's line, practically "locking" it... :ambivalence:

PS: as an aside, that's the reason why I always use a bowline rather than a spliced loop, at the dock end.
This way, if someone "locks" my line and goes away, I don't need to find a way to climb on the offending boat to temporary release her returned line, and I can just untie my own bowline instead.
Still very annoying, but not a big issue.

You are correct, if both boats are using a loop over a piling or bollard, then by passing your loop under the existing loop then over the bollard, both boats can leave without removing the others rope. I have seen in a French canal lock, a boat put two lines around one bollard and as the water went down the top rope locked the bottom rope. The boat started to tip over violently and the passengers were very nearly sent overboard, including a baby. There is nothing you can do except watch, even the lock keeper was powerless (perhaps they should carry knives). Luckily the weight of the boat freed the line in time.
In another lock, the man behind me asked to share my bollard. I, of course, refused but because of the language barrier was unable to explain why. I then told him that the stern of his boat was too close to the lock gate (and the concrete shelf that I knew was below) and that he needed to move forward. But because he had the hump with me he refused to listen. The water went out his stern hit the concrete and the bow tipped forward at a precarious angle. His wife managed to cling on, I hope she told him that the Anglais don’t just do things out of arrogance.

 

[MapisM]

But you can still do the "under and inside" trick if you wrap your line around the bollard and return it to your boat. It's not a trick that works just with spliced or bowline loops.

Agreed, theoretically you could, but in practice I've never seen anyone using returning lines bothering to do that.
Unless the marina chaps do that - in CF they normally do for instance, whenever someone insist to have the line returned onboard.
But by doing that, actually the main purpose of returned lines, i.e. the convenience of recovering them, is more at risk of jamming.

 

[Cheery]

On a bit of a thread drift, years ago, before the popularity and convenience of tautliner trailers were in proliferation, lorry drivers used to to rope and sheet their loads. They always used a locking turn to finish off the roping. This load was under strain from the wind created by the speed of the vehicle, which, whilst not the same as a vessel in rough conditions in a marina, is constant unlike ad hoc weather conditions in the marina. If this wasn't up to the task, they simply wouldn't have done it for the many years it was done for.

 

[sorabain]

It ain't easy to explain this to anyone not used to Med mooring, but the correct practice when securing a line to a bollard already used also by a neighbor boat is to pass your own spliced loop under and inside the one of the other boat.
That's something usually done by the marina guys actually, but surely the Med boaters among us noticed that they do that - well, those who know their job, anyway.

In my UK powerboat 2 training this trick was referred to as "dipping bowlines". Perhaps it's more common in the UK for smaller boats where you're more likely to end up rafting up and sharing a cleat (e.g. Cowes town harbour). Perhaps less often seen/used/learned for larger boats here.

.. and after searching around a bit it looks like the "proper" term is "dipping the eye", and if you use any variation of this term lots of experts will feign ignorance and claim to not know what you mean at all http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?433292-Dip-the-rope

 

[Bouba]

We could end this thread by saying i am tied up right now at Porquerolles. My stern lines pass through the dock cleats and back to my stern cleats. With OOXXlocking turn and i don’t care what anyone thinks!

 

[Blue Sunray]

With OOXXlocking turn and i don’t care what anyone thinks!

Which, of course, is why you told us all.

 

[Bouba]

Which, of course, is why you told us all.

You have misinterpreted my post.
I told you so that everyone knows I’m in the Porquerolles!!!

 

[jfm]

Agreed, theoretically you could, but in practice I've never seen anyone using returning lines bothering to do that.
Unless the marina chaps do that - in CF they normally do for instance, whenever someone insist to have the line returned onboard.
But by doing that, actually the main purpose of returned lines, i.e. the convenience of recovering them, is more at risk of jamming.

i agree. I wasn't recommending it- quite the opposite.

 

[Portofino]

Navy's 1 choose way works on small boats too
Arrived yesterday to find all 4
0xx0. And all fine , when you pull or 1st click Fwd or Rvse - they do not tighten so wife simply unwraps when go out
J M has a point -

 

[MapisM]

Well, if that works for yourself on your boat, who is anyone else to argue?
Otoh, persuading myself to leave my boat unattended with no locking turns (also on bowlines, mind) would remain exactly the same type of job that jfm envisaged in his post #106 for the AnCam...

 

[Rocksteadee]

Agree with MapisM as in I read it all think about it and try it, use it or dismiss it but never too old to learn. Like using a bow line on a bollard can always be released if overlaid with other lines from lesser experienced crew not feeding up.

 

[jfm]

Well, if that works for yourself on your boat, who is anyone else to argue?
Otoh, persuading myself to leave my boat unattended with no locking turns (also on bowlines, mind) would remain exactly the same type of job that jfm envisaged in his post #106 for the AnCam...

All agreed. I'll be dead alongside you before my boat is left unattended for a while with just oxxo. Let's be clear: the only case made in this thread for oxxo is "quick getaway", "I did it and nothing bad happened" and "because I say so". ��

 

[Blue Sunray]

All agreed. I'll be dead alongside you before my boat is left unattended for a while with just oxxo. Let's be clear: the only case made in this thread for oxxo is "quick getaway", "I did it and nothing bad happened" and "because I say so". ��

You understate it, I believe the full case was "because I say so and I'm an RYA instructor."

 

[john_morris_uk]

You understate it, I believe the full case was "because I say so and I'm an RYA instructor."

I’m reluctant to rise to the bait but.... what a load of tosh. Perhaps you’d like to reference where anyone has said that?

You can try and find anywhere where someone has said ‘because I said so’ while you’re at it.