Throw away yer paper charts

[iangrant]

It is official, (bit you need a few grands worth of computer(s) and displays)

UKHO:
When displayed within a type approved ECDIS and supported by the appropriate backup arrangements, ENCs can be used to satisfy SOLAS chart carriage requirements, and can therefore be used as the primary means of navigation.

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[Talbot]

<and supported by the appropriate backup arrangements> Which probably means if you dont have a chart of some type on board you dont have the appriopriate back-up facility /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[iangrant]

No. it means a back up computer..
(as Iread it anyway..)

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ukho.gov.uk/electronic_charting_guide.html>http://www.ukho.gov.uk/electronic_charting_guide.html</A>

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[tcm]

um, a cd (and ok a copy of that cd) would be appropriate. Mind you, probly need a spare computer as well...

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[ArgoNot]

The thing that would worry me here is that the software appears to run on a PC, which means that it's subject to the vagaries of Mr Gates' operating system, not the most stable thing on the planet.
Same thing seems to apply to most charting software with possibly the sole exception of Navigate. Where are the UNIX/LINUX/OSX/SUN/JAVA applications?

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[qsiv]

Software development is demand led as a rule. The volume of UNIX/LINUX/OSX/SUN/JAVA navigation apps shows how much they are sought after.

I just checked our servers at work - all 5 have been 'up' for nearly 3 years, and the last time I had an operating system crash on my development machine was two years ago. None of the users at work has had an OS crash in the last 12 months, as far as they can remember.

OTOH, the brand new apple network at the boys school crashes at least daily ...


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[reeferjon]

A major reason why there isn't any decent navigation software out there for non-Microsoft platforms is that C-MAP don't have non-Microsoft software development libraries for rendering their charts; therefore if you wanted to develop a commercially viable application you wouldn't be able to offer commercial vector chart support; only the non-commercial S57 derivative (which is great if you're in the US, as the NOAA offer free coastal S57 charts!)

Hopefully this situation will be rectified in the future - send CMAP an email!!!

In the meantime, you can run VirtualPC on the Mac and it works fine with most chartplotting software.

I've been developing on PCs for years (you could argue that they pay for my sailing costs) and they regularly crash (and this is on a state of the art corporate network.) We're still developing on Windows 2000 - XP and 2003 still has major reliablity issues, and some serious security holes.....
When I come home I use a 17" PowerBook which is an amazing machine. I've never had to reboot it and it's never crashed on me, and the user interface is light years ahead of the PC.. roll on Apple!




<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by reeferjon on 29/04/2004 17:32 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[ArgoNot]

Lucky you, qsiv. I use a PC at work, have done for years, and have found that Windows up to and including XP crashes more than I'd like. My feeling is that it's the applications that take it down, but down it goes.

On the other hand I know people who use Linux and rate it highly. I use OSX at home and have Virtual PC for those blinkered programmes. Applications may occasionally crash but that's all that happens. No reboot, and reeferjohn is right about the interface.

However I do think that nav software developers should take a broader view of what people use. Windows is not the only game in town.

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[Twister_Ken]

Navigation by Control, Alt, Del

No for me. Not yet.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[boatless]

Agree with Qsiv here, last MS operating system that was prone to crash was ME. Since then, all the cases I've come across have been operator induced. And there ain't nothing MS can do to stop that!

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[Guest]

Primarily ....

intended for seagoing Commercial CRaft that had to maintain large folios ..... over 2000 charts.
Many vessels now have 2 PC's on the bridge ... we are talking later vessels of recent build and they are both capable of chart display.
Where a single PC is found - the paper charts are still primary.

BUT - before other commercials shout me down ..... I haven't yet been on a commercial vessel that does not have paper charts on board ....... even the Dynamic Drill Ship Odin I was on recently with all the sophisticated computerised gadghetry on board and 2 chart pc's ... had paper chart still out on the chart table ......

So don't run for your mouse instead of pencil quite yet .....

Remember also that my info is the charts have not been all converted yet to the standard required.......


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Oldhand]

I have been chartplotting on a Win 98SE machine for about 30 months now and have only had one major crash. I believe that was caused by not having the shutdown delay patch installed as since installing it, I have had no trouble at all. However, as the PC is dedicated to the boat (semi-permanently installed) it doesn't collect loads of junk software/data and is only connected to the internet very occasionally for software updates. Considering Win 98SE is far less reliable than 2000/XP, I can't see the operating system reliability concerns this thread has generated.

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[Birdseye]

Interestingly, at a recent UKHO meeting they were giving out a similar message for the leisure user. They expected that ultimately they will have only a very limited paper chart business.

Shows that they're not sailors having to cope with very limited electricity supplies.

<hr width=100% size=1>this post is a personal opinion, and you should not base your actions on it.

 

[tome]

<<I can't see the operating system reliability concerns this thread has generated>>

Nor me.

It's so obvious that a system crash merely requires a re-boot and a short (voluntary) report to guru Gates on a stormy night mid-channel. He's a saintly old beast, and I've never yet experienced any problems with his excellent kit.

Was it you I saw on the Brambles? It's such a bummer when you get a Fatal Exception 201 on the approach.

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[MainlySteam]

I also agree with qsiv regarding the lack of operating system crashes. Also, windows is, and has been for many years, used reliably in control and automation systems (including SCADA) for many systems (since 1994 in my own experience, including in important systems such as those within power stations, etc.).

Interestingly my own nav system, which which is oriented to small commercial vessels and uses the code from the supplier's ECDIS system, crashes but as it only seems to occur when using one particular chart (an official one) I suspect that it is a problem in the chart, not in the nav system.

John

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[BlueSkyNick]

I'm with you Tom, and the other old-fashioned buggers - no PC's on board for me, well not for navigational purposes anyway.

Having said that, there is scope for confusion between Microsoft problems, and those created by dodgy hardware, ie the laptop itself. I must admit to blaming the Nurd from Seattle for everything, when it could also be Mr Dell's fault for all I know. Either way, mine locks up far too many times for comfort on a stable desk let alone a rolling boat.

<hr width=100% size=1>I'm average size, Its just that everybody else is short.

 

[MainlySteam]

For SOLAS (and non SOLAS where the nation accepts electronic systems) backup can be another ECDIS or paper charts. One would assume that in almost all cases another ECDIS would be the favoured backup.

I stand to be corrected on this (by authorities only though /forums/images/icons/smile.gif) but despite the many claims on these forums that paper charts are mandatory for all vessels, IMO, as far as I am aware, has allowed ECDIS with backup by another ECDIS since 1 July 2002. It is up to individual flag administrations as to whether they follow that or not.

John

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[BrendanS]

There is however a big diffference between NT based Op systems that have been quite stable for some time in business environments, and maintained by professionals, to home based pc's running crash and bash MS operating systems. Things have got a whole lot better since Windows 95 I must admit.

The big difference here is that home systems are not stable. Systems run by major companies such as power stations, run test and development, and pre live systems, to check any changes to applications or operating system before they are deployed on the live system. Home users do not have that luxury, unless they typically work in IT and have multiple home computers, so they can perform the same sorts of tests?

Brendan

<hr width=100% size=1>Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

 

[MainlySteam]

The Windows versions I referred to were not NT so would have included non NT versions before Win95 (my own experience of Windows in such systems goes back at least as far as 1994).

I do not have crashes attributable, as far as I can determine, to the operating system. Home systems are mainly unstable because of the unreliable software (often games, freebies, or cheap) and the much unskilled intervention (intended intervention and accidental) that takes place on them. Those are not the problems of the operating system though.

I assume by crashes of the operating system we mean the blue screen or other machine wide event, not just failure of a particular application. I have certainly had applications fail but who knows if it was their own fault, the operating systems fault, or the fault of another application also running on the same machine.

While we use the same PC on board for GPRS, SMS, other radio comms, apps, plus office productivity, DVD's, etc, when running an electronic charting application I always run it alone on the PC to avoid the possibility of clashes (simultaneous low level calls on the same port, for example) between applications - one could argue that the operating system should make those impossible, but I would suspect that such a task would be impossible without severe constraint on the progammes the machine allows to run.

John


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[alanporter]

Oh Dear, you make me feel like a dinosaur. I have no computor, no GPS, but I do have paper charts, a pencil, compass and parallel rule, which have served me well for the past fifty years of sailing, and will continue to serve me for the next number of years.

<hr width=100% size=1>Alan Porter