THOSE OF US WITH BOATS IN THE MED

[Portofino]

Got done by “ Guardia Finanza “ today .
Could have something to do me sea trailing the fresh under water scrub and shooting past them @ 36 knots .
A blue light + siren ensured
A couple of armed officers saw the red ensign ......homed in on us .
Wanted to see the reg cert , passport to sync me to the cert and the insurance cert , which Colemans provide the Med gamut of translations.Looked at the name of boat + expiration date .
They also asked ( first time for us ) “ how long are we here “
Told them we have a berth in Fr ...which is true and were on holiday .Did qualify about a year in IT waters .

All was well .

So in 15 years I’ve been “ done “ 3 x by Fr Douanes and now 2x By IT tax evasion police .

Mrs Porto s put me in the dog house ....those famous wife words were ignored “:for Christ sake slow down “

 

[Portofino]

One for MapishM perhaps .

I have noticed a not so small number of red ensigns hanging off the back of boats in the marina here on the Liguarian coast .

Thing is when we have attempted to strike up a conversation, they are Italian .

Turns out speaking to the GF guys ( Italian tax police ) they are owners by British banks so in effect entitled to fly a red .

The GF are entirely up to speed with this .

I have heard of the “ Italian leasing system “ a reduced vat making a bank presume Italian ? Finance and thus technically own the boat until the balance is cleared.

But U.K. money lenders / banks ...wading in or being sought out by Italians .



Got the feeling the GF have not pushed the “ beneficial user “ argument as much as the Uk IR .

Perhaps MapisM can join up the missing dots ?

 

[Chris H]

Got done by “ Guardia Finanza “ today .
Could have something to do me sea trailing the fresh under water scrub and shooting past them @ 36 knots .
A blue light + siren ensured
A couple of armed officers saw the red ensign ......homed in on us .
Wanted to see the reg cert , passport to sync me to the cert and the insurance cert , which Colemans provide the Med gamut of translations.Looked at the name of boat + expiration date .
They also asked ( first time for us ) “ how long are we here “
Told them we have a berth in Fr ...which is true and were on holiday .Did qualify about a year in IT waters .

All was well .

So in 15 years I’ve been “ done “ 3 x by Fr Douanes and now 2x By IT tax evasion police .

Mrs Porto s put me in the dog house ....those famous wife words were ignored “:for Christ sake slow down “

What have you been “done” for........or just stopped

 

[MapisM]

Perhaps MapisM can join up the missing dots ?

Not really, sorry. I haven't been involved in flag optimization policies (so to speak) for several years now.
And 'fiuaskme, the very last thing I would buy through any sort of financing is a disposable toy like a boat, anyway.

 

[Portofino]

It was a routine check / box ticking exercise.
They seemed a bit disappointed when we opened our mouths.
Kept asking us “are you English “ .

Last time I spent a lot of time in Italy the red ensigns were on boats where the occupants were clearly UK ....as you would naturally expect .
Somethings changed as the occupants of red duster boats now speak Italian and drive Italian reg Maserati’s , Porches and Ferrari’s . The car park spaces here have the boat names on and there’s a coloration between the red duster boats and nice cars .
Unless UK banks have filled a vacuum left by Italian banks in the boat lending market ?
The GF guy told me they are owned by a British bank . Just seems odd going to all that trouble .

 

[Bouba]

Are you sure that they weren’t bought in the U.K., perhaps banks getting rid of them because of the covid crisis, perhaps they are all the boats that were going to be at Southampton

 

[Portofino]

I think I have sussed it .

In no particular order but related , up to 3 strands probably 2 ?

Italian flagged boats may have a stricter, read that as more expensive regular kit list esp if 50 miles off shore .This is a cherry on the cake .



Wealth tax evasion is the main reason .



They set up a U.K. Co deposit money in .That Co with it’s now collateral users a English bank to buy a boat .The boat as the GF guys rightly say is owned by the U.K. bank - part 1 register cert has the banks name on it .

This avoids there annual 0.76 % wealth tax on the assets ....the boat and account balance.

Foreign bank accounts held Italian citizens incur a flat tax of €34.2 , irrespective of the balance .

@ Bouba ...nope the ensigns are on Intermarine , Della pasca , as well as Ferreti s , plus some sail boats Solaris a rare IT as well as the usual French mass produced stuff .Guess what a new Itama 45 on a red owned by a Italian lawyer ....!

The current fx makes exchanging € to sterling if they have to which they might not ,- more favourable .

U.K. bank will deal in what ever currency for loans .

They have there own , or had there own Italian leasing scheme whereby a bank buys it a new boat and leases it back to the owner at a reduced VAT rate ( 6% ? ) , the normal rate being 22 % so with a big sum a big overall saving eventually.

If an Italian bank is involved it will be IT flagged .

So presumably this proliferation of U.K. flagged , UK bank owned will be second owners vat already paid ?

I don’t believe the U.K. does a reduced VAT leasing scheme for U.K. residents , but if an Italian can as well via an open loophole then that’s another reason ?? Happy for clarity on the VAT angle if there is one for Italians using a U.K. structure on a new boat bought in the EU prior to January 2020 .

 

[MapisM]

This avoids there annual 0.76 % wealth tax on the assets ....the boat and account balance.

Huh? That's unheard of.
We used to have a yearly tax on pleasure boats based on length (and age), starting from 14m and progressively increasing above 17m and even more above 20m, but that was suppressed years ago.
BTW, it was applicable to any Italian resident in possession of a boat, regardless of the formal ownership and flag.

 

[Portofino]

The funds in a IT account are I suspect .
So €1m thats € 7600 Each year ...reducing as opposed to €34-2

 

[Portofino]

Wealth tax on monies held in IT investments and other accounts .
So €1 M that’s €7600 Pa reducing ., or only €34.4 if it’s in a U.K. account.

 

[MapisM]

Porto, R U sure you aren't mixing up some other Countries? There's no such thing as a 0.76% "wealth tax" (whatever that means), in Italy.
There is a yearly 0.2% tax ("imposta di bollo") on any financial assets, but aside from the different percentage, it has nothing to see with boats, on which there's no taxation at all.

It is true that the mandatory safety equipment is somewhat more expensive for IT flagged boats, including the EPIRB when cruising more than 50Nm offshore, for instance.
But anyone who should decide to flag his/her boat elsewhere because of that reason alone would be a bit paranoid, imho.
Not that being paranoid is unheard of, for lawyers...

 

[markc]

Porto, R U sure you aren't mixing up some other Countries? There's no such thing as a 0.76% "wealth tax" (whatever that means), in Italy.
There is a yearly 0.2% tax ("imposta di bollo") on any financial assets, but aside from the different percentage, it has nothing to see with boats, on which there's no taxation at all.

It is true that the mandatory safety equipment is somewhat more expensive for IT flagged boats, including the EPIRB when cruising more than 50Nm offshore, for instance.
But anyone who should decide to flag his/her boat elsewhere because of that reason alone would be a bit paranoid, imho.
Not that being paranoid is unheard of, for lawyers...

A Google search of "Italy wealth Tax" gives this result via Wikipedia, certainly a repository of loads of incorrect information, but nonetheless it says

"Italy: Two wealth taxes are imposed. One, IVIE, is a 0.76% tax imposed on real assets held outside Italy. The values of such assets are determined by purchase price or current market value. Property taxes paid in the country where the real estate exists can offset IVIE. Another tax, IVAFE, is 0.20% and is levied on all financial assets located outside the country, including, so far as the language seems to imply, individual pension schemes such as 401(k)s and IRAs in the US"

assuming the above is true, that would surely persuade Italians to KEEP their boat's flag as Italian, non?

 

[Truro Ex Pat]

Back to the subject of traveling and arriving, we have just got into France by ferry this morning after night crossing and now heading south, should be in Menton by 22.00 all being well.

 

[MapisM]

A Google search of "Italy wealth Tax" gives this result...

That explains why Porto mixed everything up, I reckon! ?

 

[Portofino]

That explains why Porto mixed everything up, I reckon! ?

Nah never use wiki .
Using PWC
Italy - Individual - Other taxes

this part ....think the U.K. account with the large deposit funding the buy through a UK bank as intimated ^^^ .

As said in the past 15 yrs bobbing in and out of IT , meeting IT flagged boats in Fr waters they were as you would expect be Italian with It flags .
Agree with Mapish it’s trivia uk flagging for the lower kit list cost .

Anyhow time will tell .

 

[Forty_Two]

Dolphins on the way back to La Napoule from Porquorolles on Tuesday. Magical ?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ilgnz5ajxjfihxi/20200714_084622[Trim].mp4?raw=1

Single handed so please excuse camerawork ?

Is the only way to embed a video by using Utube, wouldn't let me upload an mp4? I don't have a Utube a/c currently.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

AFAIK the reason there are so many 'foreign owned' boats in the Med with British flags is that the British Part 1 Registry is one of the few registries which accept registration in the name of a UK company as well as in the name of an individual. The foreign owner buys an off the shelf UK company and registers the boat in that name. This may have benefits to the owner in terms of hiding his identity for wealth tax and VAT liability and also may be required for certain advantageous leasing schemes. Whether British flagged boats in the Med will receive extra attention from officials after the Brexit transition period ends or indeed the British Registry continues to accept registration in the name of UK companies not owned by UK residents is anybody's guess

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Back to the subject of traveling and arriving, we have just got into France by ferry this morning after night crossing and now heading south, should be in Menton by 22.00 all being well.

Enjoy. We've just returned from a pleasant week on our boat in SoF. The weather and water temp was perfect and there were fewer boats out on the water than usual. If you go into France be aware that Macron is about to make wearing of Covid masks compulsory in 'enclosed spaces'. Just as well probably because the majority of people we saw were not wearing masks even in shops and bars/restaurants

 

[jrudge]

Fao the majorca people :We were in portals vells the other day and the sea weed police were in attendance ensuring that people only dropped their hook in the sand. I haven't seen them anywhere else yet, I was kind of hoping the coronavirus situation might have meant that they have more important things to focus on, but obviously not.

They were in mondrago ( next to Cala Dor ) an hour ago

 

[julians]

They were in mondrago ( next to Cala Dor ) an hour ago

I haven't seen them anywhere else I've been in the southwest corner of the island. We're staying in club de vela in andratx tonight for a bit of a change.