Thinking of buying an 11 year old yacht?

[Bav34]

My Bavaria has just made it to its 11th birthday still intact.

I was however concerned to read this survey:


There is some wear and tear to the gelcoat after 11 years use but generally the boat looks good and, with the exception of a couple of notable faults, is in fair condition. Unfortunately at least one of these, the backstay chainplate, requires immediate attention and the boat should not be sailed until this is repaired

The shroud chainplates are U bolts with the load carried to a moulding on the hull for the cap shrouds and spread with a backing pad for the lower shrouds.

The U bolts were tested as there was cracking to the gelcoat in way of the forward lower to port Photos 18 & 19 and also, to a lesser extent, to the aft lower to starboard. there was also some minor distortion to the deck noted in way of some of the U bolts although, oddly enough, not where the cracking was evident. I have seen this before in these boats and feel the chainplates could do with being stronger

Below deck the lowers could not be examined as they were hidden by linings but there were signs of water penetration at the cap shroud to starboard. Photo 20 There was also evidence that the forward lowers may have been leaking as there was excess sealant in way of the backing plates. Photo 21 Where water is in contact with stainless steel in the absence of oxygen, pitting and crevice corrosion can occur. It is quite common to find this on the shanks of U bolts, particularly when in use as chainplates. I would recommend that all shroud U bolts are withdrawn and examined. The Forestay U bolt should also be withdrawn and examined. See 2.6 The backstay is carried on a metal bar which is bolted to a moulding in the lazarette. This has not been well sealed and water has been leaking down the bar and there has been corrosion at the fastenings to the extent that the uppermost nut broke off in my hand. Photos 22 &23 The yacht must not be used under sail until this is replac

The lazarette was inspected and the laminate in good condition. However, there was extensive rust staining coming from the starboard quarter at the hull deck join. Photos 25 & 26. This is very difficult to examine and I cannot be certain of the exact source. It requires further investigation and could be quite difficult to repair

3.4 There are three Blakes seacocks fitted below the toilet. Two are the inlet and outlet for the toilet and the third is for a sink drain but the hose is blocked and no sink installed. They were all free to operate but there are a number of factors in the installation that are not in accordance with best practice. They are not fitted to mounting pads and are all only fitted with single hoseclips. The outlet hose exits in a straight run through the plinth supporting the toilet but the other two have a very tight bend. To accommodate this a short length of unreinforced, and therefore more flexible, hose has been fitted to the hose tail of the seacock and a copper elbow, which appears to be smooth bore, not a proper hose tail fitting, fitted. This leads to the sanitation hose. This gives multiple joints, the wrong type of hose, the wrong type of pipe, in addition to the other issues already mentioned. Photo 29. The problem is the very limited space in which they are installed mean that remedying any of these faults is impossible.

It's not all bad news though.

This survey was on a Contessa 32.

Hi AWOL ... see you fascination with Bavarias continues.

Mmmmmmmm, I really can see why. Don't feel bad about it.

 

[dylanwinter]

good one

had em going I b et

D

 

[Mrnotming]

Well let's face it Blakes seacocks will be in as good condition as the sun visors on a Lada!

 

[awol]

Happy birthday to your boat, many happy returns.

I suspect you have been a trifle disingenuous with your post. I do not pretend to be conversant with all the different interior fit outs of the CO32 but the sliding heads sink (although missing) and galley layout appears to be consistent with an earlyish 1970s build. The survey could, of course, be from the 80s - if it is I would presume the boat has had the problems resolved and has added another 20/30 years or so of satisfactory service. However, if it makes you feel better to post it then I am happy for you. I hope being reminded of Yachting Monthly's objective conclusions after their side-by-side testing of a refurbed CO32 and a new Bavaria doesn't affect your mood.

I am happy to tell you that Bavaria Yachtbau have finally made a boat I would like to sail. The http://www.sail-b1.com/gallery/ at less than £35k for the full race/cruise/trailer package appears to have been designed for sailing even if its keel looks a tad fragile.

 

[Tranona]

Happy birthday to your boat, many happy returns.

I suspect you have been a trifle disingenuous with your post. I do not pretend to be conversant with all the different interior fit outs of the CO32 but the sliding heads sink (although missing) and galley layout appears to be consistent with an earlyish 1970s build. The survey could, of course, be from the 80s - if it is I would presume the boat has had the problems resolved and has added another 20/30 years or so of satisfactory service. However, if it makes you feel better to post it then I am happy for you. I hope being reminded of Yachting Monthly's objective conclusions after their side-by-side testing of a refurbed CO32 and a new Bavaria doesn't affect your mood.

I am happy to tell you that Bavaria Yachtbau have finally made a boat I would like to sail. The http://www.sail-b1.com/gallery/ at less than £35k for the full race/cruise/trailer package appears to have been designed for sailing even if its keel looks a tad fragile.

Does not matter when the boat was built or when the survey was. The fact is it is describing major failings on an 11 year old boat. Take your rose tinted spectacles off and recognise that there were some pretty horrible examples of poor boat building in the past - not just in CO 32s, but they were not perfect.

 

[awol]

Does not matter when the boat was built or when the survey was. The fact is it is describing major failings on an 11 year old boat. Take your rose tinted spectacles off and recognise that there were some pretty horrible examples of poor boat building in the past - not just in CO 32s, but they were not perfect.

I have expressed my doubts on the purported 11 year old claim but the description strikes me more as crap maintenance than poor boat building. Not that stiffening of the bow sections , flats on the cap shroud u-bolt bars, and probably a host of other "improvements" weren't made during the early years of CO32 build. I don't think I have rose-tinted specs but neither do I regard "new" as necessarily better. Increased use of automated machines, minimal material usage, minimal basic equipment, simplified design and mass production for a mass market produces consistency but it is subjective whether that is of mediocrity or excellence. I bought my CO32 when it was 23 years old and it had none of the survey problems that Bav34 imagines, other minor points yes, but none as described. I have never claimed my boat is "perfect"- I doubt if any such vessel exists- but it matches my needs well enough and better than a lot of other boats and, to my eyes, looks very pretty.

 

[interloper]

I've owned a series of old boats that have required significant repairs. The things mentioned in the survey at the start of this thread would not have put me off from buying the boat. It's all readily repairable without too much money. Things that would put me off are things that require major surgery, such as rotted decks and corroded fuel tanks.

 

[awol]

I retract my "disingenuous" accusation of Bav34, it is far too gentle! I had a wee look on the EYB website - the cockpit picture in his OP (marked EYB) is from a 1981 boat listed now, god knows where the other pictures are from but they are absolutely not from the same boat. The survey certainly doesn't apply to the 1981 boat. Is the survey report a fabrication? What is Bav34's motive?

 

[Bav34]

I retract my "disingenuous" accusation of Bav34, it is far too gentle! I had a wee look on the EYB website - the cockpit picture in his OP (marked EYB) is from a 1981 boat listed now, god knows where the other pictures are from but they are absolutely not from the same boat. The survey certainly doesn't apply to the 1981 boat. Is the survey report a fabrication? What is Bav34's motive?

Oh poor old AWOL. You ARE funny!

If you read my post properly the first part was a genuine extract from a survey on an 11 year old Contessa 32 which I copied from the net on the 15th of December 2012 and simply pasted into iPad Notes. As already pointed out, the production date of the boat is irrelevant ... it was just 11 years old and due to manufacturing defects too dangerous to sail when surveyed.

Had I realised the extent of your paranoia I would have ensured that I kept the link to the survey ... but hey, I wrote it myself, didn't I?

Well in your world I did. Funny I seem to know so much about the marque's problems.

As far as I was concerned I had made my point ... showing that a Contessa can be deemed unseaworthy after just eleven years. This was purely to counter your ongoing vitriol and somewhat strange fascination with a marque that you don't own and never will. That's a Bavaria in case you're having trouble keeping up.

So THAT in all sinister intent was my MOTIVE for posting a survey on a Contessa 32.

Doesn't read well does it?

But wait, you accuse me of being disingenuous.

Reading on after the observation that I wasn't posting about a Bavaria but a Contessa I said said hello to YOU.

I knew you'd be along.

Perhaps I didn't type slowly enough or leave a big enough gap.

So here's a gap.







New subject.

I knew you'd be along because I had written the Pavlonian type of conditioned stimulus to which you always respond. BAVARIA ! Do you dribble and shake at the same time when you see it or just choke a bit more on your comfort sporran? Just wondering. It does seem to evoke a response from you each time it's published ! BAVARIA !
See? You jumped didn't you? Fingers already twitching to make some excitable disparaging reply?

So the SECOND part of the post was directed at YOU.

In the same way as you keep pictures of boats wrecked in a hurricane (odd but true) and make out (humorously of course) that they're Bavarias, I now collect pictures of mouldy old Contessas ... just so that I can feel and share your pain and perhaps understand your vitriol just that bit better. Well we all need a hobby.

Perhaps I didn't leave a big enough gap for you to recognise that the photos were for YOU AWOL, not meant in any way to suggest that the 11 year old heap was the same boat as in the photos. You surely would have noticed any intended duplicity on my part and called me on it. Oh ... you did didn't you? Different boats AWOL ! Three different Brokers names AWOL !! But at least you used an interesting word to describe me ... disingenuous. You could have just called me a liar I suppose. Small mercies.

So, my motive? Well I've explained it above.

Perhaps you'd like explain your continual criticism of a marque that has literally tens of thousands of satisfied owners. Don't apologise for the rudeness involved. We'll just put that down to a personality disorder.

I DO hope that you feel better reading this. There really was no conspiracy on my part, as imagined by you ... just facts.

Your over the top reaction to these facts says a lot ... about you.

Right, must go. Started my commissioning list last night:

Wash decks off, sails/spray hood on, shower heads back on, fill water tank, replace impeller ... um ... now stay awake Bav ... there must be more ... er ...

DAMN these modern boats ... there MUST be more to them than light maintenance and sailing.

 

[Tranona]

I have expressed my doubts on the purported 11 year old claim but the description strikes me more as crap maintenance than poor boat building. Not that stiffening of the bow sections , flats on the cap shroud u-bolt bars, and probably a host of other "improvements" weren't made during the early years of CO32 build. I don't think I have rose-tinted specs but neither do I regard "new" as necessarily better. Increased use of automated machines, minimal material usage, minimal basic equipment, simplified design and mass production for a mass market produces consistency but it is subjective whether that is of mediocrity or excellence. I bought my CO32 when it was 23 years old and it had none of the survey problems that Bav34 imagines, other minor points yes, but none as described. I have never claimed my boat is "perfect"- I doubt if any such vessel exists- but it matches my needs well enough and better than a lot of other boats and, to my eyes, looks very pretty.

Poor chain plates as described in that survey were common on both CO32 and 26 - and many other boats of that era, as were poor heads installations due to cramped spaces. Look at any owners association sites and you will find descriptions of systemic problems and ways of fixing them, drawn from owners' experiences. Many of the bad points were due to ignorance - using new materials and construction processes plus lousy quality control.

Of course newer boats are not immune from problems as again any visit to an owners' site will show, but it is a mistake to say that older is necessarily better. Perhaps in their favour older boats are relatively simpler to repair so it is quite possible to keep them in use for long periods. Suspect the same will be the case for many current boats, if only because their value encourages people to maintain them reasonably well.

 

[aslabend]

One thing CO32's will always have? A slight mystique over how well they did in the 79 fastnet.
One thing Bavarias will always have? A reputation for Keels falling off.

Sorry, it's just so unfair I know, but that is the way the world works.
People will always have a thing for CO32's whatever the failings and people will buy Bavs whatever the failings.

To be fair though, someone who buys a characterful CO32 would probably never buy a characterless Bav and someone who buys shiny a Bav would probably not buy a manky old CO32.

hey-ho

 

[Sailfree]

Nice one Bav34

Just posted another comment about lack of replies from MAB owners on the Bavaria graveyard thread that I started to then discover your thread where you had hooked AWOL and were reeling him in!!

I really can't understand this anti Bavaria stance from a few when Bavaria make excellent boats for the price. I would compare Bavaria to a Ford car - excellent design, build quality and good value for money. No one ever projects a bavaria as a Aston Martin equivalent! I have seriously considered buying them in the past but have always chosen another make due to some feature or other factor so no one can accuse me of being pro Bavaria due to ownership. I have chartered them though and they do everything it says on the tin!!

 

[Rossynant]

Nice one Bav34

Just posted another comment about lack of replies from MAB owners on the Bavaria graveyard thread that I started to then discover your thread where you had hooked AWOL and were reeling him in!!

I really can't understand this anti Bavaria stance from a few when Bavaria make excellent boats for the price. I would compare Bavaria to a Ford car - excellent design, build quality and good value for money. No one ever projects a bavaria as a Aston Martin equivalent! I have seriously considered buying them in the past but have always chosen another make due to some feature or other factor so no one can accuse me of being pro Bavaria due to ownership. I have chartered them though and they do everything it says on the tin!!

So did I, also not being against Bavs and such - but just replied to Your post out there

 

[DaveCass]

I would repair the back stay support as soon as poss.
Mine was badly corroded and was only spotted by the surveyor this year (2012)- it was a nightmare to get access to but the damage was substantial to the original metal.
I spent 2 days upside down with a grinder, a hack saw and a chisel in the poop deck hatch- before and after photos attached

 

[awol]

Oh dear, so I am the victim of Bav34's hilarious well-crafted wind-up. I hope he has gained sufficient satisfaction from it after spending all that time trawling t'internet for disparaging words and photographs of Contessa 32s. There are, of course, lots of other pictures and writings that show the marque in a far better light but he wouldn't want to admit to those. It is really shocking that there are examples of a 41 year build run of yachts that are less than pristine!

I wish I knew what I have done that makes it worth Bav34's time to expend his efforts thus. Since his last outburst I have almost entirely stayed out of the MAB/AWB spat on the "Why do ...." thread; posted a picture of what I believe is the latest Bav on the "Bav Bashers.." thread, a boat that I actually like; posted a picture (saved on Photobucket from a previous posting) of hurricane damage with a reference to Tarzan's (fictional) elephants' graveyard and corrected a poster who seemed unaware of Bav's past financial troubles on the "Bav Graveyard" thread; and finally been complementary on the latest Bav offering on this thread. Apparently this is "continued criticism" and has been sufficiently vitriolic to push Bav34's insecurities over the edge. I hope the result has been sufficiently cathartic.
As Bav34 seems to have time to spare perhaps he could supply links to the alleged CO32 survey, and also to posts where I have been rude and/or been critical of his beloved Bavs? I am guilty of being content with my boat and have even posted on the reasons why. Just a thought - did you give IPC the benefits of your thoughts after their Bav/CO32 sail-off?

 

[wotayottie]

Does not matter when the boat was built or when the survey was. The fact is it is describing major failings on an 11 year old boat. Take your rose tinted spectacles off and recognise that there were some pretty horrible examples of poor boat building in the past - not just in CO 32s, but they were not perfect.

There were a lot worse examples than this one from British builders operating at the start of the GRP yacht boom. 40 years later these faults should no longer be happening and that mostly is the case. Even with Bavs which you must admit are built down to a cost - that being the reason most people buy them. There is no excuse in 2013 for any of the faults recorded against that Contessa appearing on a newish boat.

But thats a different issue from the seaworthyness of modern low cost boats. The drive to reduce costs and to provide more of a floating caravan, that being what Joe Public wants, has not helped comfort at sea. Sadly it hasnt even improved speed.

I wouldnt hesitate to buy a second hand Bav but it would be my Yorkshire heritage that pushed me in that direction rather than any great belief in Bavaria Yachtbau.

 

[wotayottie]

There were a lot worse examples than this one from British builders operating at the start of the GRP yacht boom. 40 years later these faults should no longer be happening and that mostly is the case. Even with Bavs which you must admit are built down to a cost - that being the reason most people buy them. There is no excuse in 2013 for any of the faults recorded against that Contessa appearing on a newish boat.

But thats a different issue from the seaworthyness of modern low cost boats. The drive to reduce costs and to provide more of a floating caravan, that being what Joe Public wants, has not helped comfort at sea. Sadly it hasnt even improved speed.

I wouldnt hesitate to buy a second hand Bav but it would be my Yorkshire heritage that pushed me in that direction rather than any great belief in Bavaria Yachtbau.

P.S. Obviously the Bav comments on the forum irritate Bav owners such as yourself. Understandable. But doesnt it worry you in relation to resale value and depreciation that Bavs have this reputation, deserved or not.



Hmm. Replied to myself. The forum equivalent of talking to myself. Age I suppose.

 

[Tranona]

P.S. Obviously the Bav comments on the forum irritate Bav owners such as yourself. Understandable. But doesnt it worry you in relation to resale value and depreciation that Bavs have this reputation, deserved or not.



Hmm. Replied to myself. The forum equivalent of talking to myself. Age I suppose.

Don't think values are seriously affected by the "reputation" that is created here. The vast majority of potential buyers don't waste their time on here so probably are not even aware of it.

Values are a strange thing anyway. For example, why is a UFO 34 only worth half of a CO 32? Lots of other examples of inconsistencies - the market decides!

BTW good to talk to yourself - does not lead to arguments!

 

[Baggywrinkle]

P.S. Obviously the Bav comments on the forum irritate Bav owners such as yourself. Understandable. But doesnt it worry you in relation to resale value and depreciation that Bavs have this reputation, deserved or not.



Hmm. Replied to myself. The forum equivalent of talking to myself. Age I suppose.

I bought my 12 year old ex-charter Bav36 for €34,200, I looked at a Bav34 project of similar age for €29k (interior cosmetics). Both were structurally sound and sail-away, I've posted pics on my profile. I've done one overnighter of 30 hours in November 2011 in 2m waves beating and it didn't bother the boat or my crew - it was actually quite fun. I've broached her once through not paying attention - that won't happen again. I've spent 3-4 hours beating into a force 6 gusting 7 with the family on board. Kids below playing Nintendo while the boat and I just got on with it. Perhaps our tolerance level is particularly high, I've got no idea, but I know that if the family were squashed into one cabin I'd have mutiny. As such, the value proposition is very hard to beat, and no, I'm not worried about the resale value. If I keep her clean and well maintained I should be able to get my money back.

If you want real discomfort and slamming, with flexing hull and seam-bursting loads then go power-boating - a sailboat isn't even beginning to push the boundaries of the materials. Old wooden boats used to flex and creak, old fibreglass boats were built heavy but often had problems at stress points (I guess the survivors have had the problems addressed by now), modern boats are built lighter because the stresses and materials are much better understood. Lighter and stronger is the mantra of the aircraft and automotive industries, why should this not apply equally to boats?

 

[Sans Bateau]

One thing CO32's will always have? A slight mystique over how well they did in the 79 fastnet.
One thing Bavarias will always have? A reputation for Keels falling off.

Has anyone explored the possibility that the survival of the CO32 in 79 Fastnet was down to luck that the boat was designed the way it was rather than it being designed to survive those conditions.

As far as the one (thats 1) Bavaria keel which was knocked off a particular design racing Bavaria, and the so called 'reputation', this only exists amongst people with little else to say and even less knowledge of the boat.