The Walker Wingsail Updated?
- Thread starter James Marinero
- Start date
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It doesn't look as advanced a wing as the America's cup boats use. I thought the comments about the wing being completely automatic and the crew not needing to understand them were naive to say the least. Also the economics are naive. They admit any boat will need an engine as well, so that immediately increases the cost of design and construction. The imperative of running to a timetable will probably mean the engine is started much more frequently than anticipated.
sarabande
Well-known member
Intriguing. I was a shareholder in John Walkers first wingsail company. The video seems to be at the stage where we were in the early 80s, when masses of design and technical work had produced an excellent single wing prototype.
There are continuing low-key commercial cargo-carrying projects using wingsails as contributory power sources.
The point from StormNorm about the naivety of the design relative to America's Cup wings is well made. I'll bet there's a Pareto Principle involved: you can produce a wing which is 80% efficient for 20% of the money......
I wish the Wingsail 1980 company had kept to simple designs and not been diverted to the triple wings and complex electronic controls; the UK would now be a world leader in WS technology and use had we done so.
There are continuing low-key commercial cargo-carrying projects using wingsails as contributory power sources.
The point from StormNorm about the naivety of the design relative to America's Cup wings is well made. I'll bet there's a Pareto Principle involved: you can produce a wing which is 80% efficient for 20% of the money......
I wish the Wingsail 1980 company had kept to simple designs and not been diverted to the triple wings and complex electronic controls; the UK would now be a world leader in WS technology and use had we done so.
lw395
Well-known member
Wing rigs go back much further than Walker.
Early 70s full wing rigs in C class cats, big wingmasts in the late 60s.
It's still very hard to make a wing rig that's as versatile as soft sails, which can be twisted, flattened, reefed and rolled up when not needed.
Early 70s full wing rigs in C class cats, big wingmasts in the late 60s.
It's still very hard to make a wing rig that's as versatile as soft sails, which can be twisted, flattened, reefed and rolled up when not needed.
snowleopard
Active member
The scary thing about wingsails is the risk that they could fail to spill the wind in heavy weather. The Walker was pretty good in that respect; I have watched one manoeuvring under power (at which it was rubbish) and the rig rotated very freely.
OTOH, rigs such as those on Exide Challenger - wing masts with stays restricting rotation are downright dangerous.
By my reckonings, the best combination is a wing leading edge with a soft trailing edge that can be reefed, combined with 360° rotation to enable it to be feathered in heavy weather.
OTOH, rigs such as those on Exide Challenger - wing masts with stays restricting rotation are downright dangerous.
By my reckonings, the best combination is a wing leading edge with a soft trailing edge that can be reefed, combined with 360° rotation to enable it to be feathered in heavy weather.
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I vaguely remember one vessel that reefed its wing sails by lowering the top section into the lower section, telescope style. I can't remember a name, though.
Iliade
Well-known member
I have a rigid hang glider which is pretty much what is described here. Said l/e 'D' sections are chord lengths of about 1.5 times the thickness of the complete wing, i.e. almost round. It is interesting just how much lift the leading edges alone generate when trying to move the packed glider about in a breeze.
snowleopard
Active member
My wing is NACA0024 section, i.e. symmetrical with thickness 24% of the chord. The chord is 1m at the base, tapering to 40cm at the top. I use it on its own as storm canvas and get approx 1 knot per point of Beaufort wind strength. And yes, I once did 9 knots with it.
Birdseye
Well-known member
No we wouldnt. Leaving aside the issue of did it work and the IPC test report, the world is littered with things we invented or were involved in early on and completely failed to profit from. Its a way longer list than that of things we did profit from.
Seajet
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As an aside, I remember seeing the prototype Walker Wingsail ashore at Emsworth looking a bit sorry for herself; I presume she is sadly no more, in a perfect world that boat ( maybe with a stunted representational type rig & videos ) should be in a museum like Falmouth...
snowleopard
Active member
There are 2 reasons why it would never have succeeded in volume sales: (a) price and (b) conservatism. The vast majority of boat buyers look at something like that and say 'It looks wrong/ugly', 'It won't work' or 'I'd never be able to re-sell it'.
The degree of resistance to unstayed masts is a huge obstacle to overcome. People intuitively (and wrongly) assume there must be huge forces in the hull to support the mast. They forget the even bigger forces that a stayed rig creates because that is what they are used to.
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It didn't look like much fun either. Who wants to sit in a swivel chair pushing a 'throttle' all day long? No sails to tweak, no fun.
snowleopard
Active member
Post that on Mobo Chat and see what response you get !!
davidej
Well-known member
I am surprised anyone dares to comment given his penchant for sueing.
sarabande
Well-known member
you do know the results of Walker's actions against the reviewer's magazine, don't you ? The law found that he had been libelled.
Many of us involved in the company as investors thought that the Zephyr project was a step too far and required too much investment in the technology; a steady progress should have been made with less advanced yachts to consolidate an income stream, provide proof of concept, and allow wingsail boats to become accepted as effective and practical yachts.
Many of us involved in the company as investors thought that the Zephyr project was a step too far and required too much investment in the technology; a steady progress should have been made with less advanced yachts to consolidate an income stream, provide proof of concept, and allow wingsail boats to become accepted as effective and practical yachts.
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lw395
Well-known member
It's the stresses in the mast which are enormous.
The forces in the hull are a straightforward question of leverage, the unstayed rig puts a side wise force in the deck according to the ratio of CofE height above the deck to length of mast below deck.
The stayed rig, it's the ratio of beam to CofE height, plus pre-load. Which might be more or less depending on the shape of the boat.
Dinghies where either is allowed (e.g. Moths), unstayed rigs are not favoured. But plenty of dinghies work well enough with no stays.
The Merkins have a long history of unstayed catboat rigs, so I don't think it's just conservatism.
jamie N
Well-known member
It's odd seeing the Walker name again; he was our next door neighbour on Hayling Island in the late 60's. Am I correct in thinking that at that time, his company was "PlaneSail"? Anyway, as a 12 year old, he gave me a sail in the boat, which was terrific fun, and I believe that he used an article from that sail, as a bit of marketing blurb: "Even THIS dense schoolboy can control the PlaneSail".
It was a doddle if I recall it correctly, and seemed super fast also, which might've been due to the fact that I was racing Cadets during that period!
It was a doddle if I recall it correctly, and seemed super fast also, which might've been due to the fact that I was racing Cadets during that period!
Kukri
Well-known member
On the reefing point - in the early 90's a Japanese wingsail equipped bulk carrier was unable to furl or feather and sailed straight through the Baoshan Steelworks loading jetty on the Yangtse. The ensuing litigation was very very expensive...